@Percyolimpo Though isn't that what Ottar means when he calls her "weak against people". Because when she fights other people, it's different when she fights monsters because she's not aiming to kill. So when it comes to Freya Familia, it's obvious that they would've pissed her off for what they did, but is it enough to make her want to kill them? Especially because we know, even after all that happened, Bell's not going to want them dead (given what kind of person he is), and we know they're going to be needed for the "final final battle", so mostly seems to me Avenger would only work if it's simply recognizing someone else as "inhuman" rather than also wanting to kill.

To be weak against people, doesn't mean you stop yourself from killing them. The context I got, is that her blade is not as sharp against people as it is against monsters. It can still kill.

After what I saw in SO12 and MS16, I think it will be more than enough. And, if it worked like that (Bell not wanting her to do something like that), then rage moments wouldn't be a thing in the first place.

Saying that she will try to kill them doesn't mean that she will kill them.

"so mostly seems to me Avenger would only work if it's simply recognizing someone else as "inhuman" rather than also wanting to kill" that's pretty much it, yeah, though I guess if you recognize something as a monster, you will want to end them, so I guess it's one of those "buy one get the whole package" sort of thing

@Percyolimpo

Look, I'm not using even my own view of things butsomething that is objective: the skill's description. The thing written there is "monsters" no "beings the user hates", "beings the user perceives as monsters", nothing like that, simply monsters.

Skills are clear about their limitations. What is the point of there being a description of users can just ignore it whenever they want to?

Its like someone left no will before their dead and some person goes trying to reclame a part of the inheritance by claiming "but I was like a son to him". That could be true but it doesn't matter, rules are rules, and in some matters you can't break them simply because of feelings.

If Ais had really used Avenger as a person then yeah, it would be clear (despite how stupid it would be) that Avenger does depend on Ais' perception. But no, she used it against Revis, someone who was an actual monster.

As I have already explained, there is an actual explanation of how Ais' perception did come into play without it actually affecting Avenger. It is reasonable, plausible and, more importantly, doesn't break any rule in DanMachi.

You can't say that an explanation is more reasonable than another when it breaks the in-world logic of a serie.

If we work under the basis that any rule can be broken then nothing really matters.

To be weak against people, doesn't mean you stop yourself from killing them. The context I got, is that her blade is not as sharp against people as it is against monsters. It can still kill.

Regarding this, Ais does limit herself when it comes to people. Even if it leaves her at a disadvantage she is unwilling to go all out unless she has no other option. One of the biggest proofs is that she prohibites herself from using Ariel against other people. The best examples are her in her fight against Ottar and in her first fight with Revis, both in which she didn't use it until she had no other option left.

@Rigel31415 the skills description doesn't annul what happened in SO12. It still works against monsters, but the monsters are now what Ais recognizes as such. You may think that it doesn't make any sense, but it is what happened. Avenger was born from Ais's trauma and her resolve. However, with the Xenos, that resolve was cracked. She couldn't just keep on slaughtering monsters as nothing mattered. So, since avenger was born from her resolve, it isn't that weird that, now that her resolve has somehow changed, the skill will follow.

Again, Revis literally metamorphosed into a monster to her eyes. Ais did not realize that Revis was a creature. She already knew that. While awakening avenger, while she thinks of Revis being a creature, she is mostly thinking about how her actions are those of a monster.

Your explanation was that she stopped herself from using it against Revis. There is nothing implying that. What I'm saying, on the other hand, is fully written in the book.

I can when it is clear that Oomori intends to do that. I think you are focusing on rules way too much.

Any rule can be broken? No. Ais went through psychological hell to be able to do what she did. And it is not even actually breaking any rule. It is really just adding something to that rule. Instead of being: monsters, it is: what she perceives as a monster.

Ais is simply said to be weaker against people. That she is so obsessed with killing monsters that her blade becomes dull against people. That doesn't mean that she contains herself. Only that she is fighting for a reason that isn't her actual goal. And you know that doesn't make much sense. Revis was killing a bunch of people. There was absolutely no reason to limit herself. With Ottar, he was not an evil person. Revis clearly was.

And again, she decided that from now on she is going to decide what is a monster with her own eyes. Are you telling me that's a figure of speech?

As for the description of the skill: Oomori is still the author, he can do whatever he wants. I think what happens in the story is more important than the rules that he made, which he breaks a lot.

the skills description doesn't annul what happened in SO12.

It does. The skill specfies "monsters". Again, skills are literal. If they specify something then that is how it wil be, it's not up to interpretation.

The skill doesn't say "whatever the user views as monsters" it literally says monsters.

Trying to argument that due to Freya Familia's behavior Ais can see them as monsters and therefore use Avenger against them is like saying that I can go to a government institution and ask my dog to be given human rights because to me it is more human than a lot of people out there.

I may think like that and anyone could think so too but at the end of the day it doesnt changes what it is: a dog. And it wouldn't be because he is bad, it would be because in a literal sense he is not even close to being human.

The same for Avenger.

It doesn't matter if Ais thinks that someone is worse than a monster, she will nevr be able to use Avenger against them because the skill stictly says "Heavily increases the user's attack power against monsters"

So, since avenger was born from her resolve, it isn't that weird that, now that her resolve has somehow changed, the skill will follow.

Yes, Avenger may had been born from her resolve, but that was a resolve against monsters specifically. Hence why it only works against monsters.

Ais may have changed but that doesn't, and can't, change how Avenger works. Never in the serie has anything from the falna evolved to outgrowth its limitations written in their descriptions. Therefore, it is set in stone that they can't do so, at least as far as we know.

You may think it has already happened but like I said, there is an actual logical explanation of how that is not the case.

Even if it did eventually happen the description should also change as, like I already said, descriptions are literal. So in Avenger's case it should pass from saying "against monsters" to "against enemies who the user hates" or something like that. Until then Avenger is limited to be used against monsters, real monsters.

Again, Revis literally metamorphosed into a monster to her eyes.

One of the figure of speech I mention.

Ais did not realize that Revis was a creature. She already knew that.

And I never said that she didn't know. What I said, which is something Ais herself recognizes in SO11, is that she viewed Revis as a person, causing her to never actually think of using Avenger against her.

Your explanation was that she stopped herself from using it against Revis. There is nothing implying that.

Yes, it is. By her own admission, because seeing her as a person she didn't thought of using Avenger.

The big difference between you and me is that we just take things differently. We both do acknowledge it is Ais' perception what didn't allow her to use Avenger against Revis. However, you take that as that she was literally unable to do so, while I see it as her unconsciously preventing her from doing so.

What I'm saying, on the other hand, is fully written in the book.

Again, that is you taking things too literal instead of actually intepreting them in a more figurative way.

And again, she decided that from now on she is going to decide what is a monster with her own eyes.

No, it is strue that she will decide against who to go all out. But that still doesn't change the fact Avenger itself is restricted to monsters only, something she can't change.

As for the description of the skill: Oomori is still the author, he can do whatever he wants. I think what happens in the story is more important than the rules that he made, which he breaks a lot.

He may break them a lot recently but rules are still what we have to work with. In a shonen serie we can't just assume that the rules of the fighting system don't matter because then nothing matters.

Honestly, I am quite bored of this talk. And given our previous discussions I know that you won't give up, as I know that neither will I. So this is my final comment regarding this specific discussion. It is better if we just wait until volume 18 is released anyways.

If Ais uses Avenger then I'll admit you were right. If it doesn't happen then, at least I'll, take it as a confirmation of my statments.

No, it doesn't. The book makes it clear that Ais now controls Avenger. SO11 foresghadowed that. A description doesn't have more power over a story than the story itself.

It doesn't matter what it says. It matter what happened.

No, it is not. Like, at all. Avenger was born from Ais's resolve. it isn't that stranger that he it can adapt to her current resolve. Also, if your dog has all the characteristics of a human, being able to talk and all, then I think he could be accepted as a human by law.

You really have to stop focusing so much in the description. The story makes it clear that Ais now controls Avenger, that now she decides what is a monster and what isn't it. The story matters more than a description.

"Ais may have changed but that doesn't, and can't, change how Avenger works" that is literally what happens in SO12 dude. There is no arguing. An entire inner monologue before the battle starts to show exactly that. The description isn't stronger than the narration.

"Therefore, it is set in stone that they can't do so, at least as far as we know." now we know it doesn't work that way. Ais took control of the avenger.

It is never said that Ais never thought about using avenger against Revis. Rather, it is implied that she couldn't, because she viewed her as a person. Her not thinking about using her greatest weapon against something that she knows is a monster and that is killing innocent people is just nonsense.

There is nothing implying that her unconscious stopped her. And the entire monologue that she has before the battle implies that she truly couldn't use that Avenger, not that she stopped herself. The whole Xenos dilemma is what makes it clear that Ais now truly controls the Avenger.

Dude, it is an entire monologue of her explaining her resolve. You can't possibly believe that monologue is a figure of speech.

""The exact opposite, you have a monster's heart""

""I'll be the one to decide who is a person and who is a monster""

""I'll decide with my own eyes who to use this power on""

"That was the answer Aiz had reached after the chance encounter with the Xenos. She would not burn everything down indiscriminately with the black blaze. She would not become a puppet to the raging howls of her skill. Instead, she would use her golden eyes to direct her sword"

Sorry, but this is far superior than what the description of the skill means. And you can't possibly believe that all of it is a figure of speech, or just Ais saying it to herself while Oomori sayd: yeah, sorry, no. Because, THAt doesn't make any sense

"One of the figure of speech I mention." it is not a figure of speech. Is a clear mental process from Ais's perspective

I can’t wait for volume 18 because in all likelihood the fate of his life and happiness will be decided, and quite possibly the end of the story.

@Percyolimpo I think what happened to Avenger was a skill development. this is all theory, but the first description was that her power got stronger against monsters she hated most (preferably dragons) but since Xenos arc, I think she started to realise that People can be monsters from within. Aka, If someone fits her description of what she thinks of monsters, she'll see them as a monster.

Maybe.

HELP!!!!! I walk in the room and mommy and daddy are fighting again :P