his skill at best makes him low lvl 7, but Finn is with Hell Finegas too. as for DA, you yourself understand that it does not affect enough to allow Gareth to be stronger than Finn by 5 times. so stats were decisive

@IkariSon Magic against Gareth is useless, not even Welf's magic swords that are as strong as Riveria's magic could affect him, so whatever magic Hedin or Hogni have will be useless against him.

Hogni vastly surpasses him in dexterity and speed, but Gareth in strength and endurance considering his abilities, so Hogni being able to beat Gareth in hand-to-hand combat is possible, although the opposite is equally possible, how would we know? You say that you are not a Freya fan but those assumptions that you always make in favor of Freya contradict your words.

>Magic against Gareth is useless

I know

>Hogni vastly surpasses him in dexterity and speed, but Gareth in strength and endurance considering his abilities, so Hogni being able to beat Gareth in hand-to-hand combat is possible, although the opposite is equally possible, how would we know?

endurance doesn't really matter. even a person 2 levels higher will be on the verge of death after a direct hit with a sword. and the fight won't last long enough for stamina to matter. As far as Strength is concerned, Gareth "might be" stronger due to skill, but we don't know Hogni's skills. at the same time, dexterity and agility are easy for Hogni. to understand how it will look, re-read the fight between Bell and Dormul.

>You say that you are not a Freya fan but those assumptions that you always make in favor of Freya contradict your words.

you say this when we discuss the battle of the fast against the strong, and literally the entire LN shows us time after time that the fast wins. although if you look only from the point of view of statistics, then Hogni is not even inferior to Gareth in the Strength. I can't do anything about Omori making FF stronger than LF. Hedin and Hogni's status alone, which are higher than the LF elite, is enough to judge that they are better. and their achievements are also quite huge.

@IkariSon When Bell fought Dormul they were both level 3, but Bell who has always excelled in speed could have already had a level 4 speed, a difference in level is overwhelming, but Hogni's speed over Gareth is not enough to talk about a difference in level, so he wouldn't be overwhelmed by Hogni.

Also, it was explained that Bell was dominating Dormul due to his superior combat prowess thanks to the technique he got from his master Ais (level 6), but could Hogni be said to have far superior combat prowess than Gareth? If you think so, tell us what the source is because I doubt it exists.

And since you bring up our previous talk, I gave you as a counter argument to your position that the fast always beat the strong, the battle between Gareth and Bringar, you never explained how Gareth got out of that fight alive if your argument is true, you always responded with evasions, then it would be opportune that you clarify it.

Other fact, you say that endurance is not very relevant because someone who has received a critial blow is beaten, but remember that Gareth received the demi-spirit's blow that pierced his chest and he could conitnue fighting, then would you still say that endurance is irrelevant? and could Hogni keep fighting if his chest is pierced?

You're right that by not knowing what Hogni's abilities consist of, he could have some super powerful, but if you consider that he lost to Ryuu, that doesn't seem to be the case, because if he had it, he would have used it.

Another thing you didn't want to answer either, if Hogni is so good, why does he resort to cheating like cursed weapons to win? this fact casts doubt on his ability, he is like an athlete who resorts to doping to win.

In conclusion, it is not clear who is better than who, it is possible that not even the author knows because he has not decided, I say this because I find it extremely particular and curious that he always systematically avoids confrontations between those we are debating, therefore, it is soon for such judgments.

@Leinad91

Magic isn't completely useless against Gareth. That he could endure it doesn't mean he wasn't hurt at all. You have also to consider that it was stated that if Riveria actually put more effort in her magic.

>When Bell fought Dormul they were both level 3, but Bell who has always excelled in speed could have already had a level 4 speed, a difference in level is overwhelming, but Hogni's speed over Gareth is not enough to talk about a difference in level, so he wouldn't be overwhelmed by Hogni.

the level difference can be overcome with stats alone, and you don't even have to be Bell to do it, so yes, Hogni can.

>but could Hogni be said to have far superior combat prowess than Gareth?

since Hogni is fighting for first place with Ottar among FF, then yes, he is.

【フレイヤ • ファミリア】の中で 一 、二の白兵戦を持つヘグニだけが飛び込める穴が確かに存在する

it has been repeatedly mentioned that he has a huge fighting talent, and has had more time to hone his technique than Gareth lives. and FF is more pvp oriented than LF. LN even explicitly states that FF first-class adventurers are different from other families' first-class adventurers.

>you never explained how Gareth got out of that fight alive

I'm not Omori. he will give an explanation when needed

>Gareth received the demi-spirit's blow that pierced his chest and he could conitnue fighting

indiscriminate attack on different parts of the body is different from a targeted attack at a vulnerable point with unprecedented accuracy and desire to kill

>and could Hogni keep fighting if his chest is pierced?

he literally did in AR1. and before you say that he was in a losing position because of it, then yes, he bled and would lose in time, but until the very end he never showed signs of actually losing. in volume 18, he gets a huge burn from Ryuu and several of his bones break, and he also has very little magic and stamina, but even in this state, he first puts up a joke fight with Hedin, and then seriously fights with Allen, and he does not can defeat him until use magic. that is, Hogni has already shown twice that even with serious injuries, he is very strong. survivability depends on willpower, not endurance stat.

>he lost to Ryuu, that doesn't seem to be the case, because if he had it, he would have used it.

he lost to Ryuu due to a state where he barely has the strength to hold a sword in his hands. guess what skills or magic he can use in this state? From start to finish, Hogni didn't take Ryuu seriously, letting her do what she wanted without getting in her way and calling her a little girl. when she had already sung her magic, which he allowed her to sing, he still continued to dominate. i.e., it's not an opponent that you can use something powerful against, and then he didn't have the strength to use it. remember, for example, the skill of Ryuu Mind Load herself, it literally consumes mana for its use. Hogni may be the same.

>why does he resort to cheating like cursed weapons to win?

everyone has their trump cards. Hogni's pure prowess still rivals Ottar and easily second in Orario. using the cursed sword gives him another buff, but that's not the core of his power. it's the same as asking, if ais is good at killing monsters, then why would she need an Avenger (which is a much bigger cheat than a cursed weapon)? she's like an athlete who resorts to doping to win.

@IkariSon

I may be wrong but I don't know of any case apart from Bell of someone who has overcome the level gap only with his statistics, if you know of one, could you state it?

Your entire argument is based on the fact that Hogni surpasses Gareth by 398 agility points, therefore he would be so fast that Gareth would be overwhelmed and unable to respond to attacks. You forget that it was already explained that the level is the most important element of the falna, therefore, two adventurers of the same level will have similar physical conditions, and although there will be advantages depending on the value of the stats, this will not be overwhelming, to overwhelm you need an additional skill to the basic status that increases the stat beyond the level.

Also, from what value an overwhelming difference is created is a question that Omori has never answered, in fact he has given conflicting information about it, for example, when Bell and Lefiya were chasing Wiene, Bell could not leave Lefiya behind, even though the difference in agility between the two must have been much bigger than the one between Gareth and Hogni, then, to say that this difference would be overwhelming for Gareth is totally arbitrary.

On the other hand, you are not considering all the elements of the falna, it is true that in general Hogni has more status than Gareth in basic abilities, but Gareth has more status in development abilities and has three that would serve him well to fight in a duel, instead Hogni only two, taking into account that Mage will not be of any use against Gareth, so there is compensation.

Regarding combat prowess, Hogni can rival Ottar but so do Finn and Gareth, Ottar himself recognized them as his rivals in the episode Freya, also Ottar explained to Ais that he and Loki's trio who had the privilege of "training" with the Zeus and Hera families developed great skills as duelists, it was Ottar himself who established the similarity between their fighting skills, so we can conclude that all of them are rivals for Ottar, therefore, it cannot be confirmed that because Hogni is, then he is better than Gareth.

You also contradict yourself on the importance of resistance, you say that it doesn't matter that Gareth greatly surpasses him in this stat because resistance is not decisive in a fight, but then you say that Ryuu beat Hogni because he was tired... well, It is the same with Gareth, if the battle drags on, Gareth's greater resistance may be decisive.

Your comparison between the cursed weapon and avenger is inaccurate, avenger is part of Ais's falna, it is like many other abilities that increase status, so it is not legitimate to consider it cheating, that would be like considering the bestialization of Ottar cheating because increases his power. Instead, a cursed weapon that causes the opponent's wounds to not heal... makes you think, could it be that Hogni can't win if the wounds he deals don't have an anti-healing effect, i.e. if he only dealt normal wounds? As I see it, these types of cheats are to make up for a lack of ability/security.

Here we are only talking about possibilities, perhaps one of Hogni's skills is decisive, although it is not consistent that he didn't use them against Ryuu if it is so, and indeed he can defeat Gareth as you speculate, but with the information available it is also possible to assume the opposite. Considering all the possibilities is what makes your judgment objective, but being biased towards Hogni because you like the character is what makes you a Freya fan.

That is noticeable, for example, when you insist and insist that Hogni is so good that he could have defeated the Dis sisters by himself if he had not been distracted, when it is evident that this is not the case because the final fight was 2 vs 2 and even so they had trouble winning.

@Leinad91

In fact, he claims this because the difference is much greater than 400 points. You also forget the characteristics from past levels. 400 points from level 1, from level 2, and so on up to level 6. If levels had that much of a difference that you're talking about, there's no way Bell would have been able to outperform his opponents. Bell had +500-600 to his stats and was able to move faster than Hyakinthos, even though he lost easily before that.

Bell didn't try to outrun Lefiya. He needed was to stop Wiene, if he had wanted to he would have overtaken them both, but he had to adjust to Wiene's speed to simply not run away from her at full speed. Remember how he managed to catch up to her, even after she had run far enough.

Of course Gareth would be stronger than Hogny, but not so much as to completely overwhelm him, given their minimal difference in strength.

(969 / 999)

Hogni has far more battle experience, far better technique, and biq than Gareth. Is there anything in which Gareth is ahead of him? Hogni has been fighting most of his life, increasing his experience and skill. Hogni has been fighting since about 20 to 30, by which time Gareth should have just been born or 10 years old, and since he didn't become an adventurer right away, the difference in experience becomes even greater. Being worse than Hogni doesn't mean being the worst. They still have a lot of experience, so there's no surprise.

And what's wrong with that? Ais herself was dependent on her weapon, Hogni has fought for very many years using this sword, which is a relic of his kingdom. But that doesn't mean it's useless without it, he was also, for the first time using Dizaria, able to fight against one of the Dis sisters with level 6 characteristics while at level 5.

The problems were due to the change of weapons and the increased characteristics of the Dis sisters.

>I may be wrong but I don't know of any case apart from Bell of someone who has overcome the level gap only with his statistics

rather than someone in particular surpassed someone in particular, but someone in particular was so weak that he could be surpassed by many. Lefiya - this very example. her battle prowess as level 3 was only equal to level 2, as only then was she able to defeat the Minotaur.

>Hogni surpasses Gareth by 398 agility points

at every level.

>level is the most important element of the falna, therefore, two adventurers of the same level will have similar physical conditions

in fact, SO6 explicitly states that if the stats of adventurers AT PAST LEVELS vary greatly, then there will be a huge difference between them at the current level. in Lefiya's case, it even means a difference in levels, although Hogni had 6 levels, in each of which he is faster than Gareth, so he will also be much faster. we also have an example of a faster and better fighter easily defeating an adventurer of the same level as him: Bete and Phrynе. so no, the level itself does not give almost the same power to everyone. in fact, the stats that can be obtained per level buff more than the buff per lvl up, because if it were not, then Lefiya would never be weaker than her level, but she is.

>although there will be advantages depending on the value of the stats, this will not be overwhelming

on paper, Gareth with skill and Finn with Hell Finegas are both level 7, but Gareth proved to be 5 times stronger, cutting through roots that Finn could only scratch in pair with level 5 Bete. obviously it comes from statistics.

>when Bell and Lefiya were chasing Wiene, Bell could not leave Lefiya behind

Bell was running at Vienna's speed, not his full speed. his goal was to stay close and protect her, not just run as fast as he could. Level 2 Bell was actually about equal to Lefiya in Agility, as seen in their chase on the 18th floor.

>Gareth has more status in development abilities and has three that would serve him well to fight in a duel

Gareth have Fist Strike E (useless, he couldn't hit Hogni with his fist), Crush H (maybe useful, but not very high rank to be really significant), Strong Defense H (useless against Hogni's sword), Magic Resistance E (solidly, but Hogni haven't use his magic to beat Gareth)

Hogni have Swordsman G and Flash Cut I. can only guess what they do, but it is obvious that they are generally useful in combat, unlike Gareth's DA.

>but so do Finn and Gareth

only their teamwork is implied as giving them the ability to win level 7 when all three are together, but each of them individually is pathetic compared to Ottar both in terms of experience and in terms of stats. so you made it up. besides, it doesn't even make sense for them to be as experienced as he is. 7 years ago, Ottar fought with a higher level in pvp and won, Gareth and Riveria fought a monster at that time, and Finn was sitting in the office. it perfectly illustrates 90% of everything they do. so Ottar's prowess in pvp is not even comparable to them.

>Ottar himself recognized them as his rivals in the episode Freya

they were the only team capable of fighting him back to some extent (because they are the only team that has any interest in defeating him at all). it doesn't mean they are even equal to him in general or anything like that. Ottar has shown that he can handle even three level 7s, so Loki's trio isn't really close to him. not to mention pure experience or technique.

>Ottar explained to Ais that he and Loki's trio who had the privilege of "training" with the Zeus and Hera families developed great skills as duelists

he said "Finn and others", not "Trio Loki". the Freya elite already existed at the time when Zeus and Hera were alive.

>Ottar himself who established the similarity between their fighting skills

he said that he himself, Finn, and the others received Zeus and Hera's baptism of fire, making them generally more experienced than the current generation. it doesn't put him in any way on par with Finn and the others, they just went through the same thing but on completely different paths. Ottar was the one who was beaten more times than all the others combined.

>it cannot be confirmed that because Hogni is, then he is better than Gareth.

while their experience is incomparable because Hogni often fights other 6 levels in pvp and Ottar himself while Gareth doesn't and their difference in technique is so terrible (Gareth is never even mentioned as having top class technique; brute strength, that's all, and Hogni has been honing his swordsmanship for over 50 years). Hogni is indeed a better warrior than Gareth. you want too much from a tank when compared to a brilliant swordsman.

>then you say that Ryuu beat Hogni because he was tired

tired from other fights because Omori forced him to use the cursed sword when it wasn't even necessary. at the beginning of the fight with her, he was already tired, and during the fight itself, he reached a breaking point. the fight with Gareth won't last long.

>Gareth's greater resistance may be decisive.

again, it doesn't help against weapons in any way. The Gullivers are listed as capable of killing Ottar, and Tiona easily cut off Levis' hand. even the difference in levels doesn't matter when it comes to the clash of weapons and flesh.

>avenger is part of Ais's falna

does it matter? it's still a skill she didn't deserve. we have many peoples with a fate more tragic than hers, but none of them got the Avenger.

>Instead, a cursed weapon that causes the opponent's wounds to not heal... makes you think, could it be that Hogni can't win if the wounds he deals don't have an anti-healing effect, i.e. if he only dealt normal wounds?

no. the fact that his sword is better than others does not negate Hogni's own fighting prowess. once again: this is an addition, not the basis of his prowess.

>although it is not consistent that he didn't use them against Ryuu if it is so

we have many examples of characters not using all their skills when they can. it means absolutely nothing.

>but with the information available it is also possible to assume the opposite

both theory and practice go towards Hogni. Gareth's victory is not justified by absolutely nothing.

>when it is evident that this is not the case because the final fight was 2 vs 2 and even so they had trouble winning.

and you completely ignore the fact that they switched weapons, yes. all of Hogni's prowess is based on his technique and tactics, and it was thrown into the trash because he doesn't know how to use Hedin's stick, while his opponent had no such weaknesses. A little reminder: We've been told a thousand times that in the battles of first-class adventurers, any mistake means death. Guess how many mistakes someone who has no idea about their weapons can make? in the first battle, Hogni was with his sword, and everything was fine.

small enumeration of Hogni's achievements, in case you suddenly forgot:

1. as a high level 5, he fought two high level 5 and did not lose. it is also likely that they used a curse, because when they appear, there is an illustration where the emphasis is on their clasping their hands, and after that the lines that a huge amount of magical power was released. Guess what the Dis sisters have in their arsenal of clasping their hands and unleashing power? it is not difficult. so a high level 5 Hogni was fighting two level 6. and in the near future after being wounded, he did not even concede.

2. although the details of their fight are unknown, Omori did think leaving Hogni against the three low level 6 was okay when he could get support in the form of the same Hedin, but he didn't get it in the end.

3. when tired, he is able to fight with Ryuu level 6 and win, although she used Agris Arvensis. in an extremely dire state, he continued to gain an advantage, until finally his stats dropped enough that Ryuu was able to defeat him. he ended up with a huge burn and several broken bones. however, right after that, he had a prank fight with Hedin, where it was said that his attacks could easily be dodged by any first-class adventurer, meaning that Hogni's stats had already fallen below level 5. and only a short time after that, after resting only a little, Hogni went and began to fight Allen, while protecting Anya, and Allen could not do anything about it until he used magic.

Now remind me what are Gareth's achievements in pvp?

@IkariSon

You are making a common mistake regarding how the falna works, many like you think that the statistics of previous levels are added arithmetically to give the real value of a stat but although in theory it is so, it is something that has only been seen in practice in Bell's case.

I will give you the example of Bete, as a level 5 he had an S rank in his agility stat, and it is reasonable to think that he had it in all his previous levels, however, Bete as a level 5 did not have a speed of level 6, he had almost the same speed as Ais, Tiona and Tione, therefore his stats from previous levels were not reflected in his current status.

Bete as a level 5 could get a level 6 running speed but through his skills (Solmani and Fenris wolf), thus regardless of his S ranks, Bete as a level 5 had a base speed of level 5, which means that his stats from previous levels were not added to his status.

If you think I'm wrong, give us specific examples where it has been seen and expressly said that a character has a stat above his current level thanks to his statistics from previous levels, other than Bell of course, I don't remember any.

That being the case, Hogni has level 6 speed just like Gareth, that Hogni is faster, yes, he is, but that he can overwhelm someone of his same level with speed... there are no reasons to think so.

Gareth can vastly outperform Hogni in strength and endurance, especially in the latter, as it's sensible to think of Gareth as having level 7 strength and endurance, and not because of his stats from previous levels but because he has two skills that directly greatly increase these stats.

Bete vastly surpassed Phryne thanks to a skill not his stats, also she was only pseudo-level 6, not level 6, there are uncertainties about the exact effects of UnK, considering these 2 factors, this example doesn't work.

In the case of Finn and Gareth, Finn has a low strength stat, Hell Finegas at most will give him a strength of level 7 in rank 0 or maybe not even that, instead Gareth with rank S997 in his strength stat and a skill that it's unknown how much increases this stat, it is natural that he overwhelms Finn in strength, once again, superiority due to skills, not statistics.

As for Gareth's AD, considering his strength and his E rank in Fist Strike, it's enough with landing a good hit on Hogni to injure him severely, even more so due to Hogni's low endurance, same with Crush, if he crushes him with his gigantic strength, I doubt Hogni will come out of it, and Strong defense helps him block Hogni's weapon, all useful. Hogni's 2 are also useful but they are fewer in number and of lower rank.

Now, in terms of combat prowess, you are focusing a lot on the number of years of experience, although it is logical that Hogni has many more, a factor that can be more decisive than the number of years is the quality of the training. In Astraea record and in the episode Freya it was said that in the last 10 years of existence of the Zeus and Hera families they dedicated themselves to "training" the other adventurers of Orario, being Ottar, Finn, Gareth and Riveria the only great beneficiaries of this formative process that are still active, then, the formation that Gareth received from the Zeus and Hera families may well be worth many years of empirical learning from Hogni.

Allen, Hogni and Hedin were already in Orario before the disappearance of the Zeus and Hera families, but they probably did not train with them because their level was very low at that time, proof of this is that Zard did not know Allen, instead Alfia and Zard did know Gareth and Riveria, it is clear then that these two did train with them.

It's okay that in the Grand Feud, only Ottar fought in single combat, but the fact is that the Zeus and Hera families' guardianship lasted for 10 years, so that fact does not indicate that Finn, Gareth and Riveria did not form as duelists under the aforementioned tutorships. In addition, you are giving a lot of importance to Ottar's victory, he realized that Zard wanted to lose to strengthen him and winning against someone who really wants to lose is not so meritorious, in fact, Ottar admitted that he was still weaker than Zard and that his victory had not been fair in the Freya episode. So it's time you manage the expectations regarding this achievement, although it was significant, it does not mean that Ottar has unmatched prowess for his rivals.

Referring to the status of Ottar it is obvious that Loki's trio is not a match for him, as a pseudo level 8 which he is obviously there is a huge difference, but it is the same for Hogni, he cannot be compared with Ottar either, I am only comparing prowess not statuses and due to the formative process that I mentioned there are reasons to think that they rival him, and again, I did not make it up, in the episode Freya Ottar openly admits it and during the training with Ais, he matches his prowess with Finn's in order to explain his point to Ais. If the novel expressly says that Finn and Gareth are Ottar's rivals, what authority do you have to say that this is not the case?

In addition, Hogni did not train regularly with other level 6s and Ottar, in Folkvangr fighting between them was prohibited and they were not friends enough to meet to train together, in fact, they had to take advantage of the fact that Ottar was in the dungeon to be able to fight him. It is easier for the Loki family to meet to train between levels 6 than Freya's.

Once again, Gareth has already shown that he is so strong and skillful that he was able to handle the Gulliver brothers' sword, axe, spear and hammer at the same time and with his bare hands and without worrying about not wearing armor, which it makes very clear his prowess against all kinds of weapons is remarkable, and I would say that the simultaneous attack of the 4 Gullivers is more challenging than Hogni's sword, so it is absurd to think that Hogni would defeat him quickly because of his skill with the sword.

Leaving aside the speculation and going back to the facts, we have seen that the progress of Gareth and Hogni conicide, they were both high level 5 at the same time and both reached level 6 in the same event and have been at this level for the same years. However, out of all the current level 6s, Gareth is the only one who should have already leveled up to level 7 according to Omori, he said that Gareth didn't level up by plot, which means that objectively speaking, Gareth outpaced Hogni's progress and if it wasn't for the plot convenience, he would have already left him behind. This fact is a clear indication that Gareth is the one who is leading the progress of the current level 6s, which would not make sense if Hogni surpassed him as widely as you suggest.

On Hogni's alleged achievements:

1. Man, that argument would be valid if he had won, we only see that he was fighting well against both of them but not that he was in a dominant position or that he was close to winning, if it was as you suggest then why didn't Hogni go to defeat the Dis sisters alone with his weapon? Why did Hedin have to go too?

2. you use Hogni's supposed fight against the 3 level 6s again, It was already confirmed that the Freya family had enough second-class adventurers to form 20 families, which leaves no doubt that Hogni had the help of a battalion of these against them. Also, I checked the details and Ryuu says, during her escape, that she was facing the core of Freya's second-class adventurers, so they were in Folkvangr, and they were also level 4, because Ryuu couldn't leave them behind in speed, despite the fact that this is her specialty and she could not send them flying in one fell swoop, despite the fact that she has mind load, which makes it clear that all of Ryuu's pursuers were level 4. With this data and especially Freya's absurd number of second-tier adventurers, it's already ridiculous to continue suggesting that Hogni dealt with Ais, Tiona, and Tione alone.

3. Allen had his reduced status due to Anya's magic and was having an emotional crisis, also all the battles you mention at this point ended in the defeat of Hogni, I don't know then what is the great merit.

The only great achievement I remember from Gareth about this is his easy handling of the Bringar despite his enormous disadvantage, I doubt Hogni could do the same, fight all 4 being unarmed and come out on top.

In conclusion, the issue is still open, at least for me, I don't see conclusive evidence of Hogni's superiority, even more so because I don't see any worthy battle where he surprised us with his victory, just a lot of half information that can be interpreted in multiple ways.