In Volume 10, Asterius said that Ottar could only be "PROBABLY" stronger than Ais using Wind + Avenger alone, which is a blatant lie and shouldn't be said why.

Baed on what? There is nothing to suggest that Ariel with Avenger don't put Ais on par with Ottar.

Ariel alone was able to give a high Level 5 Ais a Level 6's prowess, as stated in Episode Freya.

Avenger alone made a completely new Level 1 Ais made a Goblin explode just by touching it with her sword.

Combine both, and Ais boasting a prowess comparable to that of a Level 7 isn't unreal.

the fact that she singles him out does not seem to be something surprising

That she has a personal interest doesn't mean her comments should be completely discarded.

Ottar claimed the Loki top executives were better than Ais in combat against people. But Ottar has an actually particular relation with them, acknowledging them as his rivals. So should we completely discard Ottar's comment?

Characters indeed make mistakes, but their claims aren't always false.

Status is made up of past level stats

Only ever said to be relevant for people of the same level. And even then not really, as Gareth for example can keep up with Finn's speed, although there should be a gargantuan gap given their Agility stats.

Besides Bell no one has ever been shown surpassing someone of a higher level through stats alone. If you can provide an example then do so.

Since you haven't read 3 Astrea, and are judging by spoilers

Actually got the volume. Can upload photos of the scene as proof.

And you are lying. Hedin tries to use his magic, but Dina is too fast for him and wins. Hogni tries to attack Vena, but fails to reach her, as Vena used her magic to attack him.

The sisters then perform a pincer attack and indeed try to go after the one they want, but before they can the part of Vena getting stabbed by Hedin happens.

4) Of course, it is very logical to compare Lunoar, an unarmed fist fighter against Ryu, who has better parallel singing than Riveria.

A skilled melee fighter with an almost 100% completition record, and who herself was explicity said to have experience dealing with magic swordsmen.

I also literally said that I don't believe Finn to be a match for Ryuu in regards to concurrent chanting. The point was that just being skilled doesn't guarantee Hogni could stop Finn's chant. More so when it is a short chant.

5) He literally had no occasions where he could use 3 magic

If it was anything like how you propose then how would he suppoedly be able to be able to cast it?

I understand that you are simply a Finn fan, so I won't argue with you.

I ain't a fan of Finn. Only characters I like are Bete and Ottar. Besides those two of the rest of characters I at most like their designs, one of which is actually Hogni. If anything I am more of a Hogni fan than a Finn fan, since there is actually at least one thing of the former, unlike the latter that I don't really like anything of him.

@Rigel31415

1) Combine both, and Ais boasting a prowess comparable to that of a Level 7 isn't unreal.

At the same time, she is far from Ottar, and also it was not a tempes avenger, a separate wind and an avenger, so her speed was not level 7.

2) Ottar claimed the Loki top executives were better than Ais in combat against people. But Ottar has an actually particular relation with them, acknowledging them as his rivals. So should we completely discard Ottar's comment?

You are literally comparing different things, Ottar clearly appreciates the composition of the Loki family, because he encountered and observed them, but there is simply no evidence that Valleta fought with someone from the Freya family and you thought of them yourself.

3) Besides Bell no one has ever been shown surpassing someone of a higher level through stats alone. If you can provide an example then do so.

Literally Bethe and Finn.

Lefiya could only defeat the minotaur at level 3, while normal lvl 2 fighters could also do it.

May I ask you to drop a line where exactly Gareth could keep up with Finn's movements?

4) A skilled melee fighter with an almost 100% completition record, and who herself was explicity said to have experience dealing with magic swordsmen.

It's still not a valid comparison because Ryu is the one who uses parallel singing better than riveria and Finn didn't use his magic even on the demi-spirit from volume 12 of the oratorio after such moments can show that he can't use parallel singing at all or use it extremely poorly.

5) Actually got the volume. Can upload photos of the scene as proof.

As for Ar 3, I put it wrong, because few people read it, I judged by the spoiler, however ... In Ar 1 there is an interesting moment when the dis sisters hold hands (an illustration was also dedicated to this), after which, before the battles, they release a huge magical power.

Anyway, a 2v1 fight where the opponents couldn't overwhelm Hogni without his gaffe is an achievement beyond defeating Dina with level 6 strength and speed.

Even with that, she's nowhere close to Ottar.

That is an assumption. There was never a limit given to how powerful Avenger is. Based on what do you say it?

there is simply no evidence that Valleta fought with someone from the Freya family and you thought of them yourself.

She didn't need to have fought them, just see their prowess in battle, something she would have gotten a lot of opportunities for.

And we have direct confirmation that she knew of their existence. If she knew there were other Level 5s, but of who she didn't know the extent of their abilities, then why would she have just stated he was the second strongest?

And again, exposition. If Oomori just wanted to make Finn strong and/or put Valletta in a predicament it was enough to say that he had a Level 6's prowess. Adding an explicit claim that calls him the second strongest is clearly a case of exposition.

Literally Bethe and Finn.

It was explicity said that Bete was faster than him and other Level 6s due to his skills.

May I ask you to drop a line where exactly Gareth could keep up with Finn's movements?

When the top executives fought against Revis.

Even though she was a mage, Riveria was keeping up in speed and working in perfect unison with the prum and dwarf in close-range combat.

If Gareth wasn't roughly as fast as Finn then Riveria would have been keeping up with either Gareth or Finn. Instead, it is stated that she kept up with both, meaning they were each roughly as fast as the other.

Finn didn't use his magic even on the demi-spirit from volume 12 of the oratorio

Finn was in charge of the six battlefields so he couldn't use Hell Finegas since it would take away his ability to act as a commander. SO12 was released before Oomori retconned that Finn can actually keep his judgement while using Hell Finegas.

I am not saying that without a doubt Finn could pull it off, but that we can't completely discard the possiblity

Anyway, a 2v1 fight where the opponents couldn't overwhelm Hogni without his gaffe is an achievement beyond defeating Dina with level 6 strength and speed.

I'll check it later myself, since I can't right now, so I will leave my opinion for then. But we actually already had a discussion about this in my message wall with another user (the creator of this thread actually, IkariSon) and no japanese speaker agreed with him that the scene showed Hogni as a proper match for the sisters.

Lasting against them wouldn't be an achievement if they weren't going serious. If they were just toying with him for example.

@Rigel31415

And again, exposition. If Oomori just wanted to make Finn strong and/or put Valletta in a predicament it was enough to say that he had a Level 6's prowess. Adding an explicit claim that calls him the second strongest is clearly a case of exposition.

And even so, this is not a 100% statement, Finn did not show it in any way. So it makes no sense to take her words as something accurate, because in danmachi most of the lines are wrong.

You can also add here the extremely evasive mood of the author, initially he said that Alfiya and Zard were the strongest characters in the work, but then he remembered Albert, and there are also captains, the victory over which they have only chances.

She knows about the existence of other levels 5, but at the same time she only encountered Finn, and also possibly knew about his magic, therefore she considered him stronger than the others, for example, if she encountered Allen, she would obviously not leave him, and it was also clearly noted, that Hogni has the best close combat, with him she would not have survived either.

In addition, the Freya Family destroyed Apate and Alecto, it is easy to assume that while they were destroying the main families of evil, Valleta encountered the Loki family and the Finn in particular.

I can give a ton of examples, for example, even from the early volumes, where Bell literally called Ais the strongest adventurer, they hardly see other first-class ones, but he knew about the existence of other first-class ones, so...

Lasting against them wouldn't be an achievement if they weren't going serious. If they were just toying with him for example.

Dina pierced him with two daggers, and Vena, with the help of magic and magic swords, did not allow help to come, they were clearly going to kill him

If Gareth wasn't roughly as fast as Finn then Riveria would have been keeping up with either Gareth or Finn. Instead, it is stated that she kept up with both, meaning they were each roughly as fast as the other.

This actually contradicts the system given by the author. I doubt that it is specifically about their physical capabilities, rather it is only their fighting technique that they trained where everyone adjusted to their partner, which is logical, saying that they have the best team work in the LF

In fact, while reading the battle from volume 18, I just came across a scene where Mikoto barely killed a lvl 1 adventurer from Freya's family.

By the way, the Finn had no doubt that Ryu level 4 was capable of defeating Valleta.

@Rigel31415

There is a conflicting issue regarding Loki executives that makes it difficult to position them in this type of rankings and it is the almost complete lack of combat scenarios in dueling mode for them, especially for Finn, Gareth and Riveria.

It is curious that in all the novels (Sword Oratoria, Astraea Record and Main Series) Finn, Gareth and Riveria have not even had a single duel on equal terms and fully developed, where we could have known in detail their combat prowess and how their abilities (AD, skills and magic) work and what range they have, in order to land what exactly their virtues are as duelists.

This is not because the author did not have the possibility to develop said scenarios, because he had some clear possibilities like the final events of volume 17, you once told me that he had cut all the combat scenes between Freya and Loki because the volume 18 would address this issue then there was no point in making spoilers and at the time it seemed like a valid argument.

Now with the confirmation that the Loki family did not participate in the war game, their decision to cut all the aforementioned combat scenes is once again questionable. What I want to point out is that there is a deliberate omission of information, a total absence of development by the author regarding this topic and the reason for it is not clear.

On the other hand, we see the Freya family who stood out a lot as duelists in Astraea Record and one more time in volume 18 and compare them to the executives of Loki who, for someone who has only read the novels (who doesn't know the tweets from Omori or the events of Dandemo) do not even seem accomplished duelists and the natural result is what we are seeing, everyone thinking that Freya's executives are the most powerful and only they should be at the top. Due to the current development of the plot, It is an understandable position.

Referring to the information provided by the author, we have the following facts:

1. The Zeus and Hera families dedicated the final years of their existence to help strengthen the other families, being: Ottar, Finn, Gareth and Riveria the maximum beneficiaries of this tutorships that are still active.

2. Ottar legitimized Loki's trio as his rivals.

3. Hell Finegas gives current Finn a level 7 power up.

4. Tir na Nog is one of the most powerful attacks.

5. Riveria has the most powerful magic that is above her level.

6. Gareth has strength and endurance of level 7 due to his abilities and magic doesn't affect him unless it is as powerful as Riveria's.

Considering these facts, it is very reasonable to assume that they do not lose against Freya's trio, but everything is theoretical, it is necessary to put that theory into practice to be sure.

For example, watching a duel between Finn against another high level 6 specialized in combat, seeing his performance and how he uses his abilities and confirming that he is a worthy rival to Ottar, seeing if he can use Hell Finegas in this scenario, which I imagine he can because it's a short chant, see if it does indeed give him a level 7 power and overwhelm his opponent, and see if his spear throwing magic is devastating. And the same for Gareth and Riveria.

In short, it is time for Omori to stop referring to the ability of these 3 through data / information and really show us that in practice, all the information is correct, since it did not happen in the war game and generated a great disappointment, so let it be compensated in the next arcs.

Finn did not show it in any way.

Speed and strength.

He swiftly got rid of the remanants of Apate and Alecto. In doing so, he could have demonstrated to be as fast a Level 6. A person is also gonna look considerably worse if receiving a punch from a professional boxer than a normal person. So by seeing Finn while he dealt with them she was able to see and therefore confirm that his strength was that of a Level 6.

Aisha did the same in DM12. Although they never fought since Bell became Level 4 she was able to accurately tell his prowess in each aspect due to seeing him fight in their way to the Water City.

You can also add here the extremely evasive mood of the author

Working under the premise that Oomori constantly forgets things makes everything meaningless.

For example, what if when he called Hogni the most skilled in melee combat he had forgotten that Allen is actually more skilled?

I agree to not take everything Oomori says at face value, but to work under the premise that he constantly forgets things is another thing. And even doubting him is only reasonable when other pieces of evidence contradict a claim.

She knows about the existence of other levels 5, but at the same time she only encountered Finn

You are ignoring that she just had to see their prowess in battle, not face them herself.

the Freya Family destroyed Apate and Alecto, it is easy to assume that while they were destroying the main families of evil, Valleta encountered the Loki family and the Finn in particular.

That she was particularly interested in Finn doesn't mean Valletta only ever focused on him. Her end goal was to destroy Orario, so she had to deal with them all as Evilus' commander.

I can give a ton of examples, for example, even from the early volumes

And I agree that doubting them is fine, but only because evidence points otherwise.

Ais the strongest? One of the earliest established rules is that level is the most important aspect of falna, so with her being just a Level 5 when there were Level 6s and a Level 7 itis clearly a lie.

Finn second strongest? Finn is the only Level 6 with an ability to boost his prowess above his level. There is no evidence that actually contradicts it. If anything, it is supported by the rule that level is the most important aspect.

Hogni may be more skilled than him, but fights aren't just a matter of skill. Physical prowess also matters, and a lot. Asterius has an utter lack of technique, yet even skilled warriors like Bete, Tiona and Tione have no hope against him in a 1vs1, simply because his raw might is too superior to theirs.

If anyone else demonstrates an ability to boost their status to that of a Level 7 then I'll be the first one to say that Finn being the second strongest is doubtful.

Dina pierced him with two daggers, and Vena, with the help of magic and magic swords, did not allow help to come, they were clearly going to kill him

That doesn't mean they wouldn't toy with him. Dix was a merciless man and leaving Bell alive was definitely not a good idea, but that didn't stop him from playing with him even though he was more than capable of quickly getting rid of Bell, as shown when he easily overwhelmed him once he got angry.

Also, I read the scenes. I agree with what the japanese readers said in my wall, at no point was it said, shown or implied anything that suggested Hogni was a match for both.

This actually contradicts the system given by the author.

The system is full of contradictions. Points from across all levels have the same value. The system should then work on a linear scale, but it works on an exponential one.

With just an increase of 561 points Bell passed from being unable to follow Hyakinthos' movements to outpacing him. Meanwhile, in SO3 Lefiya was able to follow Bete's movement, although the gap in their Agility stats was definitely way more than 561 points.

it is only their fighting technique that they trained where everyone adjusted to their partner

If that was the case then they wouldn't be able to overwhelm Revis. She was shown to easily outpace Finn, who would be the fastest of the three. So if the three of them suddenly moved at a pace of someone dramatically slower than him, with just a little more than half of Finn's speed (going by stats), she wouldn't have been overwhelmed by their assault.

Just like the Gulliver brothers and Ottar. They may have great coordination and be many, but due to how slow they are compared to him Ottar has no problem dealing with them.

In fact, while reading the battle from volume 18, I just came across a scene where Mikoto barely killed a lvl 1 adventurer from Freya's family.

What does that have to do with our discussion?

By the way, the Finn had no doubt that Ryu level 4 was capable of defeating Valleta.

Page number? I don't mean to be rude, but I think it is pretty obvious why I am skeptical to that.

@Rigel31415 Loved each of your posts really.

"Some" people think that just because she isn't good at fighting people like she is to monster, she is pretty weak. Which is nonsense.

@Rigel31415

Aisha did the same in DM12. Although they never fought since Bell became Level 4 she was able to accurately tell his prowess in each aspect due to seeing him fight in their way to the Water City When Finn got rid of the remnants of evil,

among which there was not a single first-class, Hogni instantly got rid of one of the level 5 spirit warriors.

Even here their achievement is not commensurate.

For example, what if when he called Hogni the most skilled in melee combat he had forgotten that Allen is actually more skilled?

Let's not compare an event that is already a little over two years old, I'm sure that at that time the author practically did not think through the full strength of the Freya family, which is hinted at by the cut fights that appeared only in the LN version.You say that there is no way to say that this is not a clear statement, but also no way to say that this statement is true.

Omori showed this through Valleta's dialogue, but not through the narrator's point of view, which also doesn't lend credibility.

50% to 50% until Finn has done a decent job, let's not judge that as a fact, I can't deny that it's true, but you can't really say it's true either, so we'll just rule it out.

Just like the Gulliver brothers and Ottar.They may have great coordination and be many, but due to how slow they are compared to him Ottar has no problem dealing with them.

It literally says that any attack from them can kill him, but the gulf between them and the gulf between them is too high.

Revis was originally faster than Finn, and also it's been 3 volumes since their last meeting, she's probably gotten even stronger. She could have killed Gareth when she switched to speed but was thwarted, they literally override each other's weaknesses with teamwork.

Physical prowess also matters, and a lot. Asterius has an utter lack of technique, yet even skilled warriors like Bete, Tiona and Tione have no hope against him in a 1vs1, simply because his raw might is too superior to theirs.

Are you saying that the gap between Asterius and Loki's new elite will be the same as the one between Hogni and Finn and Hell finagas??

You're comparing at least a medium-high level 7 monster and low level 6 adventurers, the same Bete doesn't have the weapon to properly hit him, and there's a line where he was able to fight him for a while, at their huge difference.

Moreover, it also says that an adventurer can never achieve the body strength that Asterius has, comparisons between monsters and people of the same level are incorrect, you are literally using ridiculous facts to justify your point of view.

Literally says that the abyss of 1 level is not the limit, because Mikoto barely coped with the adventurer on the level below, because he was an einheria (strong warrior) from the Freya family, even of a low rank.

Naturally, I can show you this line so you can see for yourself.

Also, I read the scenes. I agree with what the japanese readers said in my wall, at no point was it said, shown or implied anything that suggested Hogni was a match for both

You should reconsider your blog, Kisaki literally retracted his words and said there is a line confirming that Hogni fought two.

Angelo also corrected that he was wrong, and another user also confirmed it.

Page number? I don't mean to be rude, but I think it is pretty obvious why I am skeptical to that.

“I always assumed she was long dead by the time they stopped Gale Wind’s rampage that finished off the last of those Evils five years ago. That means, during the Twenty-Seventh-Floor Nightmare…” Raul added, equally as stiff. Loki Familia had naturally been involved in the extermination of the Evils for the past fifteen years. Having joined the familia eight years ago, Raul and Aki were all too familiar with the events that had taken place.

Unfortunately, I was wrong, those were Raul's words.

You can also check this out by reading chapter 2 of volume 7 of the Oratoria.

Everything you say about Finn being second in strength is based only on Valletta's words, not the narrator's.

Still, none of us can say that they are 100% true or false, so this argument may not be used until Finn shows the proper result.

You also cite as an example that Lefia could watch the fight Bete level 5, although the difference in their speeds is simply incommensurable and the difference there is 2 levels, in that case Hogni superior in technique easily handle Finn 7 with the characteristics of I 0 Because even with a 2 level difference, Lefia who is a mage sees the movements of the fastest vanguard family Beta.

On this one I will ask to leave this argument, because of the achievements Finn has only a line, in the fidelity of which you yourself think.

Until Finn really shows his maximum, I won't think he can really surpass even Allen or Hedin.

@Noon123 No one thinks so. It's just that Ais fans have a habit of making her achievements look higher than they really are. Just because she's not in the top 10 adventurers doesn't make her weak. Please don't make up suggestions like that just because your favorite character wasn't placed in the top 10.