@IkariSon, I don't see a clear indication that Bete's attitude was due to him almost losing, he is violent by nature and known to be hungry for battle, his challenging Gareth may simply be because he was forbidding to do what he wanted, Bete is not someone submissive who simply follows the chain of command and that prohibition was so unsatisfactory that even Tione considered disobeying the orders of her beloved Finn.

The fact that he was not injured contravenes your statement of the almost certain defeat of Bete, besides, I do not see what the problem would be with expressly saying that Bete had a bad time and had to recover in the infirmary and for that reason he was determined to look for Rematch. If that was the scale of power that Omori already decided on, nothing about it would prevent him from divulging it instead of leaving it up in the air, so there must be something more underlying in this matter.

Inventing narratives based on the way in which we interpret the clues is what is known as a "headcanon".

The Hogni thing gets more complicated, volume 18 made it clear that an adventurer can easily defeat a group of adventurers 2 levels below him, it seems to me that Ryuu defeated 40 of them quickly, it's sensible to assume that Ais could do the same, therefore, it now looks more plausible that Hogni fought 3 level 6s at the same time.

However, in volume 18, he didn't give the impression of being as strong as volume 17 seems to indicate, since Tsubaki gave him challenges, he didn't seem like he could take on 2 like her at the same time, moreover, he was defeated by Agaris Alvesynth and it has already been confirmed that Ariel is more powerful, like so that he could deal with this and 2 other opponents.

Omori has gotten the scales of power wrong in the past, like in the scene between Ottar and the Loki family in SO4, where the narrative is clearly misleading about it. It may be that he wanted to promote Hogni and he went too far or Hogni simply limited himself to defending and maintaining the position as Ottar usually does, in which case he would not be in an advantageous position, much less a victory, but in one of containment.

In any case, the facts are problematic and a ratification that Hogni is so wonderful or a rectification that he is not would be very relevant.

Regarding Tiona's attitude, you are ignoring a fundamental aspect of danmachi, romance, there have been many debates about this lately, however, I have never seen you participate in any, I infer that this does not interest you, nevertheless, this aspect has a great significance in the series. Tiona is in love with Bell, that was already confirmed in 2 SS that talk about it, so the reason why she was so desperate to participate in the war game was not because she did badly against Hogni and she wanted revenge, but because she didn't want to give his Argonaut to Freya, there is no mystery, that's why she ran to train him so that he would not fall into those "claws".

What you mention about the narrative indicating that LF and FF were evenly matched in power which obviously weren't like that because FF had the great advantage of Ottar, just goes to show that Omori is not always consistent with what he writes and often changes his mind and develops scenarios that contradict what he had already established, that is, rigor is not his most preponderant characteristic.

You put Ottar's scene to highlight that point and although in general terms you are right, you are wrong on one point, Allen's magic, even if he could reach level 8 power, does not mean that he is stronger than Lil Rafaga, remember that the Spirit magic is the most powerful, like Welf for example, who, being level 2, can use magic as powerful as Riveria's through his magic swords with which he defeated Allen, by the way. So Ariel (a great spirit's magic) logically must be more powerful than almost any other, it is not surprising that Ottar needed all his power to stop her even if Ais held back.

Regarding the fight between families in the Freya episode, well the superiority of the Freya family is already becoming evident with the example you set between the Bringar and Riveria, it is worth noting that Loki's youngsters were still level 5 at that time, although despite this, Finn already confirmed that they were inferior to the Freya family because they couldn't defeat Ottar.

The only revelation that is missing is that regarding the 4 level 6s of Freya (including Mia), Omori refuses to indicate who is better than who, both between them and comparing them with Loki's executives, the reason for this omission is not clear. I really don't understand what is the big problem about saying directly that this one is better than that one and so on, that's why I proposed this point as one of the debates that, for undetermined reasons, Omori has never clarified.

Even if Ais and Tione could finish off the Level 4s in DM17 easily it doesn't mean they joined Tiona in fighting Hogni. Back in SO6 Oomori made a bunch of Level 3s and 4s fight Ais. Though she obviously came out unscathed, and there was no indicator they were particularly hard opponents, said fight dragged on long enough for Argana's fight with Tione to finish.

Oomori has made people hold off far more powerful enemies in order to make things go how he wants whenever he needs them to. Most notably you have a Level 6 Bete having troubles with a group whose strongest member was just Level 3.

As for Lil Rafaga vs Gralineze Fromel, the former was stopped by an attack with Ottar's strength, while it was noted that Ottar would need his full strength to counter the latter. Also, Ais just used Lil Rafaga in a desperate attempt to reach Bell and was surprised she had actually gone as far as to actually do that, which are clear indicators she wasn't acting rationally but impulsively, a state in which she would have been unable to hold back. So they are comparable as far as evidence shows.

The Hogni thing gets more complicated, volume 18 made it clear that an adventurer can easily defeat a group of adventurers 2 levels below him, it seems to me that Ryuu defeated 40 of them quickly, it's sensible to assume that Ais could do the same

There are 3 reasons why Ryuu can defeat the Einherjar quickly. First, the Einherjars are not good at cooperating without Hedin commanding them. Thus, Ryuu can keep picking off each person without fighting them all at the same time. Second, Alise magic and Ryuu's superb skill in concurrent chanting prevent everyone, including Hogni, to stop her chant. Last, Ryuu's Luminous Wind wipes them all out. These were all described in the novel. In Ais's case, she would need to take every opponent down one by one because she has no large-scale magic. It's not hard for Ais but not as easy and quick as you make it sound. Besides, Ais doesn't even usually use Ariel against people. Vol 4 clearly states that.

Tiona is in love with Bell, that was already confirmed in 2 SS that talk about it, so the reason why she was so desperate to participate in the war game was not because she did badly against Hogni and she wanted revenge, but because she didn't want to give his Argonaut to Freya, there is no mystery, that's why she ran to train him so that he would not fall into those "claws".

Not so sure about Tiona's love for Bell. Where do I find those SS? Btw, Tiona indeed said she will beat Gareth if she can help Argonaut kun. She never said she wants to revenge against Freya Familia or anything like that.

Frankly, you guys are making a big deal out of those conflicts in vol 17 for nothing. Those battles even happen offscreen and there's no winner in the end. Ntm, Omori has a habit of making things seem intense or epic.

I have been curious about this for a while. Where did it say Ais' mom is a great spirit? Is the great spirit a real thing? Like is it a higher form of spirit with more power? Or is it just like the case with high elf, which only means elf royalty and nothing more than that?

Tiona's SS: https://danmachi.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kisaki_Tosane/Volume_17_Tiona_SS

As for Aria, I am pretty sure her status as a Great Spirit comes from Albert's tale saying he was aided by one, which clearly refers to her. As for power, I think the only direct mention of Great Spirits being better was Jupiter saying other Spirits recognized because of being one. Can remember his exact words, but you can look it up on youtube like always.

@Rigel31415 , Ryuu defeated 40 Freya members very easily and quickly, thanks to her luminous wind magic which is wide area, Ais and Tione don't have such magic but it's hard to believe that between the two of them they would have much lower performance than Ryuu's, even more considering that Ais defeated pseudo level 5 Ryuu with a single blow and that without using Ariel and obviously none of those Freya members would be stronger than that Ryuu.

Of course, Argana's example is valid but due to the facts mentioned it seems forced to be repeated in Folkvangr, even more so if Ais used Ariel, that's why I told IkariSon that Omori does not have rigor as his most preponderant value. I think what happened is that he simply wanted to introduce Ryuu as the new super wonder and with that purpose he made her perform much better than Ais and Tione did and if that doesn't fit well it doesn't matter, it's all to develop the epic scenarios that he likes so much.

Obviously, an extreme fan of Hogni like IkariSon is going to interpret those facts in such a way that, logically, Ais and Tione quickly finished off the second-class adventurers and then Hogni dealt with all 3 at once. As I said, I don't think those fights in volume 17 have enough plot weight to conclude nothing about nobody, they were just for the show, that said, I must admit that, in strict fairness, IkariSon could be right, at least there is reasonable doubt given the aforementioned events.

Regarding the comparison Lil Rafaga vs Gralineze Fromel, in the translation of "hitoribocchi translation" it explicitly says that Ais held back when she used Lil Rafaga against Ottar for fear of killing him, so Ottar used all his strength to stop a moderate attack , you might want to show off your new Japanese language skills and check it out XD.

Also, about Allen's attack, from what I understood, he mixes his magic and his running skills to maximize power up to level 8 presumably, that is, it is a mix, if so, Allen's magic by itself couldn't compare to Ariel, although of course, I have doubts if I understood it correctly and if the translation is correct.

@Longhatruong, that SS shows that Tiona acts like an "Argonaut" fan and looks at him from afar, but deep down she wants to reach out to him and "hold his hand" and doesn't want to end up as the argonaut watcher in the story who in the end, regretted never getting close to him. In this story a symbolism is handled where obviously Argonaut is Bell for her.

However, there is another SS from volume 16 called "the circumstances of an Amazon", which I think is not on this wiki, there Tiona sees Bell and Syr during their date and gets jealous, feels a discomfort that she can't explain and she tells Tione that Bell is Ais's and her. This one is quite explicit.

>Tsubaki gave him challenges

1 Hogni was badly wounded

2 she has a powerful magic sword

3 he easily dominated her throughout the fight

4 the only result Tsubaki achieved was a scratch on his shoulder, but only because Hogni chose to face her in a head-on collision instead of continuing to cut her like he did before

5 Ryuu mentally noted that if they had all attacked Hogni together at the same time instead of attrition tactics, she wasn't sure they would have been able to win. it is unknown if this includes Tsubaki with Haruhime.

it's not something that can be called "gave him challenges"

>he didn't seem like he could take on 2 like her at the same time

nothing shown in the battle suggests that Hogni had any difficulty or even tension. the moment the battle ends, Tsubaki stands wounded while Hogni stands unharmed. after they exchange last attacks, Tsubaki's chest is slashed and Hogni just gets scratched in the shoulder. we don't even know if he fought seriously or not, but we have the fact that he didn't even kill any of his opponents, following the rules of Wargame.

>he was defeated by Agaris Alvesynth

he was defeated by his own cursed sword. at the end of their fight with Ryuu, he didn't have the strength left to even hold a sword firmly in his hands, and only then Ryuu was able to defeat him, but to be honest, even Raul could have killed him in such a state. throughout the battle, Hogni didn't even take Ryuu seriously, as shown by the way he just stood there and watched her sing all her magic, only intervening at the end. Agaris Arvensis has nothing to do with this.

>it has already been confirmed that Ariel is more powerful

in terms of overall utility, maybe, but Agris Arvensis has more trump cards. in addition to increasing speed, defense, and attack power, it grants the ability to create explosions on impact. and those explosions that Ryuu used to push Hogni back were the only reason why she was able to complete Luminous Wind. Ariel in this situation would be worse, because it does not have special defensive or accelerating properties, which would be enough to influence Hogni. except for Great Spirit Wind, of course. but it will eat up all the mana.

>It may be that he wanted to promote Hogni and he went too far

in Volume 18, nothing we know about Hogney is downplayed. on the contrary, he had more feats, and we still don’t even know anything about his trump cards.

1. beating up pseudo level 6 Tsubaki while being badly wounded

2. beating up level 6 Ryuu while being badly wounded and badly injured

3. shows no signs of being inferior to Allen, albeit not in the best condition, while being double badly wounded and double badly injured

Hogni is the one who fought three levels 6 in a row, each time worsening his condition, and if not for Daphne and the rest of the food, he would have won two out of three fights unconditionally, because critical exhaustion would not have come in the battle with Ryuu. maybe he would even win all three in a row.

and in each of those fights, he didn't even intend to kill anyone. Tsubaki is just a little fun along the way, cut her easily and let her go. Ryuu is another little fun and Freya's favorite. Allen is a rebellious brother who Hogni wanted to reconcile with Anya. regarding the latter, there was even a line in which the fact that Hogni did not use Dainsleif was called his mercy.

>So Ariel (a great spirit's magic) logically must be more powerful than almost any other, it is not surprising that Ottar needed all his power to stop her even if Ais held back.

Level 5 Ais with Ariel at full power performed worse against Levis than low level 6 Ais without Ariel. Lil Rafaga - it's just ridiculous, if a charge for a few seconds gave her strength of level 7 or 8, she would just come up with something a long time ago that would allow her to use it in every fight and just one-shot all opponents. Ottar wasn't the only one whose strength had changed since the 4 volume of the SO. Lil Rafaga also belongs to this category. if ais had an attack that hits several levels higher, it would be given much more attention than we are shown. Lil Rafaga is not even her trump card, but just a common move, in which there is not even anything tricky, it's just using all the power of Ariel in one attack. By no means can Lil Rafaga be considered a level 7 attack, absolutely not.

>The only revelation that is missing is that regarding the 4 level 6s of Freya (including Mia), Omori refuses to indicate who is better than who, both between them and comparing them with Loki's executives, the reason for this omission is not clear. I really don't understand what is the big problem about saying directly that this one is better than that one and so on, that's why I proposed this point as one of the debates that, for undetermined reasons, Omori has never clarified.

kinda agreed

just re-read the scene with Riveria and the Amazons. Tion can't believe her eyes, watching Hedin's magic as if seeing it for the first time. then Riveria explains who Hedin is, saying that he is better than her in ranged and close combat and in the amount of mind. this means as directly as possible that the Amazons, and probably Bete and Ais, never crossed paths with Hedin and Hogni. so the battle described in FC means Ottar, Allen and the Gullivers vs Trio Loki and B/T/T/A level 5. and the Gullivers were still free. I doubt that Allen fought all Loki 5 levels, so this only goes to show how great Ottar is if he took on almost all of Loki's elite.

in SO 4, Ais also did not immediately recognize Allen and the Gullivers' fighting style, realizing who they were after the fight had already been going on for some time. B/T/T/A DEFINITELY barely crossed paths with Allen and the Gullivers a few times, and didn't even cross paths with Hedin and Hogni. Finn saying they've fought countless times is either just blatantly lying or missing out on the fact that they've lost like trash every time.

by the way, examples from early SO volumes, and probably from all SO volumes, are absolutely meaningless. Rigel says that Lefiya was supposedly able to follow Bete despite the level 2 difference, but in volume 18 we see that Heith can't follow Ryuu with her eyes and Hedin can't even react to Ottar. all three cases refer to a level 2 difference, but in the last two examples the difference between Heith and Ryuu and between Hedin and Ottar is even much smaller than between Lefiya and Bete. the SO4 events that I have already described only add weight to my words. in short, SO - bs, especially the earlier volumes. it makes sense to believe only LN. we've seen a lot of breaking the rules over and over again on SO to make things more epic.

oh, and Allen can't react to Zard

Oh goddammit are we perhap gonna have a Tiona arc as well? Istg someone needs to put a stop to Omori.

that SS shows that Tiona acts like an "Argonaut" fan and looks at him from afar, but deep down she wants to reach out to him and "hold his hand" and doesn't want to end up as the argonaut watcher in the story who in the end

Pretty sure Olna did reach out to Argonaut and hold his hand. Olna literally has the perfect setup for a romance to happen but nope. Omori just wants his story to be like a fairy tale that the mc ends up with the princess. Omori really needs to learn that if he set a goal at the end of his story, he needs to pick the proper route to reach that goal. Not going another route and then jumping back to his goal right at the end of the story.

I didn't see the Argonaut visual novel, but I talked to Kisaki Tosane about the topic who did see it and he confirmed that Olna fell in love with Argnonaut but he "joined" with the princess, which is that SS talks about, how Olna advises Tiona not to follow her path and to "get on stage" and "hold hands" with the hero she is a fan of.

Anyway, there is the other SS that I mentioned, the one that leaves no doubt about Tiona's feelings for Bell and I just remembered that there is another SS called "maiden not in love" where Tiona describes her taste in men and Oh surprise! the description of her matches Bell.

I don't know if there will be a Tiona arc, what I see very clearly is that Omori does not plan to close the "romantic duel" for Bell soon, he could have done it in volume 18 if he wanted to and he didn't, in fact it was in the other direction increasing and reinforcing the "harem" of Bell.

However, I already made a post where I addressed this topic about how the scenarios that Omori builds for Bell are more suitable for a polygamous womanizer than for a "faithful boyfriend", and the conclusion was that there is no reasonable explanation for this behavior, that is, I can't understand what Omori is trying to do with all these girls in love of Bell.

Although I dislike the romance aspect of the story, other parts of Argonaut are really good and I recommend watching it.

Maybe arc isn't the right word. All girl who have fallen or will fall in love with Bell kinda has at least 1 vol with them being the main girl of that vol.

Edit: I just remember Cassandra so my previous statement is not entirely correct but ig u guys know what I mean. The odds for it to happen are quite high.