63 Votes in Poll
Laurus Hildr and Ariel don't give a full level boost, but they're enough to get someone with a low status to a high status, on the brink of the next level, like when Ais held against level 7 Revis or Bell against level 8 Ottar, for which It's not surprising that multiple skills are needed to equalize their effects, that's my thesis.
Ais can't beat Hogni because he is better than her, it's as simple as that, even if Ais used Ariel and had a high level 6 status equal to or even better than Hogni's, when the statuses are similar there combat prowessdoes weigh more than status.
The first battle against Revis doesn't prove anything, since much later Ottar explained that Ais had no chance of winning against opponents that she perceived as people, it was a psychological barrier that she surpassed thanks to him. Keep in mind that the same Ais that was defeated by Revis faced and defeated level 6 Udaeus, and I highly doubt that Revis was stronger than Udaeus considering how easily Finn defeated her.
I continue to mention those fights because they provide us with a direct comparison between their capacities, the narration says that although Bete managed to put pressure on Filvis, in general he was never in a dominant position and that he had help and was using UnK that is better than Úlfheðinn.
Also because it shows us that although Hati can strengthen him infinitely in theory, his resistance has a limit, when he reached it he had to launch his final blow with the hope of finishing off Filvis, otherwise, he would have continued receiving damage until his power exceeded Filvis's, but clearly he couldn't do it, so expectations must be managed regarding how much Hati can really strengthen him.
Ais's case is very different, since she was in the dominant position the whole time by using tempest-avenger, and she could have finished off Revis but it was said that "the black flame" would consume her to the point of no return in that case, that's why Bell had to save her.
But regardless of that, we saw that Bete with UnK and Hati was not stronger than Ais nor Hati could strengthen him enough to make it, and if we replace UnK with Úlfheðinn Bete will be in a worse position in the comparison.
Therefore, it is enough evidence to conclude that Hati plus Úlfheðinn aren't nearly as powerful as Ariel plus Avenger, so Omori's tweet can only refer to an exclusive comparison with Ariel.
Regarding whether Ariel alone can give her more power than Tempest-Avenger, the scene indicates that the white wind is more powerful than the black wind, so the preliminary answer would be yes, but this question remains pending, this is due to the damn habit that Omori has for omitting information, we don't know in which specific cases Ais can use it or if she acquired a new skill or if Avenger was modified, in short, many doubts about it.
What is clear is that in the final clash between Ais and Revis both gave their best and since Ais emerged victorious it must be that she somehow exerted a level 7 power because with one of level 6 she would never win in such a clash.
Finally, if Bete had finished off Filvis, at least there would be a reasonable doubt that perhaps Hati makes him as powerful as Ais and the issue would remain open, but plot convenience or not, things went another way, so from the evidence, it cannot be concluded that Bete can be compared to Ais when she uses avenger in no case.
@Leinad91 "Ottar's bestialization, Finn's Hell Finegas and Ais's Ariel, have allowed them to overcome the level gap but because they were already at the upper limit of their respective level, it wouldn't have been like that if they had low stats"
Isn't that just supposition though?
"If it were possible to have skills that give a full level boost, Uchide no Kozuchi wouldn't be such a valuable magic"
Uchide no Kuzochi is just Omori's way of making the defeat of the OEBD possible. Actually, taking into account how strong Zeus and Hera were, if Orario doesn't at the very least have a level 10 they are screwed
Uchine does eliminate the need to give bell another OP skill. allowing oomori to keep his build terrible. rather, i guess it would be accurate to say that with uchine, oomori could buff up 9 whole people. ottarl goes level 9 with uchine and then beastifies, finn goes level 8 with uchine and then heff finnegases, gareth has got OP strength and endurance skill and uchine makes him OP. It makes riveria a level 8 mage. along with bell and ais, that is 6 people. am guessing hogni and hedin and allen could go to level 8 with it after they reach level 7.
Think of it like this, even if ottar has reached the limit of his vessel, beastification did made him a pseudo level 8.
Even if ottarl has reached the limit of his vessel, uchine on him would make him for 15 minutes a level 8.
So, how exactly is beastification any different than a pseudo level up?
I did not realise the context of that tweet was ais vs asterius. it would make sense that avenger was included in that description since ais did use avenger against him.
I think ais might have been winning against phyrne because 1. better stats at previous level possibly. 2. better combat skills overall. ais did have finn riveria and gareth to teach her. even if she is primarily a pve rather than pvp, that is just relative to the likes of loki trio and freya elites. its not like her pve skills are terrible. it just means that in comparison to those high level 6 and leve 7 people, her skills pale.
If we are going to make comparisons based on the words used better employ the original text.
Avenger: 怪物種に対し攻撃力高域強化。・竜種に対し攻撃力超域強化。
Intense Heat: 瀕死時における全アビリティ能力高補正。
Backdraft: 瀕死時における『力』の超高補正。
Úlfheðinn: 獣化。全アビリティ能力超高補正。
Vana Arganture: 獣化。全アビリティ能力超高補正。
Hell Finegas: 全能力の超高強化。
Lubrude Bequia: 戦闘時、『力』の高補正。・逆境時、『耐久』『器用』の高補正。・大敵交戦時、『敏捷』『魔力』の高補正。・三条件達成時、継続時間に比例して『力』『敏捷』『魔力』の小補正。
As you can see, non of them shares the same term as Avenger. So saying that any of them is equal to it following that logic is wrong.
And again, you have Ais' example. As a high Level 5 Ariel was enough to make her a pseudo Level 6, yet now as a low Level 6 it hasn't been enough to make her a pseudo Level 7. There is no evidence that it wasn't the same for Alise, with Lubrude Bequia giving her a prowess above her level thanks to her status as a Level 4 already being high.
Could Úlfheðinn be powerful enough to be equal to the level up bonus? Yes, and it most likely is given the comparison with Vana Arganture. But until there is any evidence that it is not the same as Ariel in that the boost can only give a might above one's actual level when in conjuction with a high status, it is wrong to assume it is the case.
Regarding Bete outpacing Ais, it still took him the entire afternoon to do it. That he ultimately managed to do it shows his superiority, but the amount of time it took him shows that it also isn't too big.
As for why Phryne was inferior to Ais, it is specifically said to be due to the latter's skill:
"The temporary strength Phryne had gained for this duel was no match for the swordsmanship Aiz had perfected through hours upon hours of rigorous training. Aiz’s technique and tactical prowess were simply too great for Phryne’s own abilities to catch up."
Under the logic that because he was talking about Ais' performance against monsters at the start the second comparison was of her with Avenger, then the first one should also be. Again, there is no indicator that he switched the Ais with which he was making the comparisons.
As for why is Bete still only "probably" stronger with two additional boosts than someone he stood a chance against without them, that would simply be because non is powerful enough to overcome the gap on its own. Yes, Bete stands a chance, but that's it, a chance. He is still the weaker one. And just because they are each powerful it doesn't mean that each of the boosts is enough to overcome a gap he still could still somewhat handle.
As an example, Ryuu was inferior to Hogni, yet she wasn't inferior enough to be easily defeated by him, their prowess was close enough for her to manage to hold her own for a while. However, even though the gap was small enough for her to stand against him on her own, even with Agaris Alvesynth, which is said to be a powerful enchantment, she was still inferior to him. So inferior it was said she normally would have been unable to defeat him.
Ryuu vs Hogni may be a more extreme case of it, but it would be similar to a theorical pure Ais vs Bete duel. Same would be the case for beastification and Hati as it was for Agaris Alvesynth. Sure, they may be powerful, but that doesn't mean they'd each alone put Bete close to Ais in terms of overall prowess.
For Ais to defeat Bete it wouldn't take her an entire level gap to do it. Bell could defeat a Minotaur which was trained to be stronger than a normal one and he, as great as he was per Level 1 standards, was a Level 1 nonetheless. Also, Oomori said that Bete is "probably stronger", meaning that if any of them would be superior to the other it would indeed be Bete.
And more importantly, never was it said that Ais would win said fight, nor that if she did she would do so as the stronger one. You are just assuming that either me or Oomori's comment says so, when neither actually does.
Regarding Allen chasing after Bell, it probably came down to Oomori wanting a speed competition. Even when Bell thinks of using Argonaut he doesn't think of using it to attack Allen, but to take distance.
As for Ariel, yes, it doesn't give an entire level worth of boost, but it is comparable to the level up bonus. EF explicity says Ais faced Udaeus with a Level 6's prowess, which was obviously thanks to Ariel.
It is also a supposition that beastification and Hell Finegas can give an entire level worth of boost by themselves. More so, we know that Ariel, which could raise raise Ais' prowess to a level above her actual one when she had a high status, is unable to do the same now that she has a low status.
So the claim that they need a high status to boost their user's prowess to the one above their actual level does have a basis. And unless any of them proves to be massively superior to Ariel it is just wrong to think they are actual to an entire level worth of boost.
Oh, didn't know that.
Also everyone, we should move this discussion somewhere else. At the start it was fine because we talked about it in relation to what it meant in regards to comparing Ryuu and Ais, but now it has fully lost that aspect.
Ais can't beat Hogni because he is better than her
If Bete with Hati and Beastification is only as strong as Ais, she would have a power border or outright level 7. No reason to think she couldn't beat Hogni, especially when she knew nothing about Hogni's status
The first battle against Revis doesn't prove anything, since much later Ottar explained that Ais had no chance of winning against opponents that she perceived as people
I always know u want to argue for the sake of argument, but this is the next level. Do you even realize that this has absolutely nothing related to what I said? Both those Revis fights I brought up only have Revis as Ais' opponent. I'm not comparing Ais fighting humans and Ais fighting monsters. In both those fights, Ais faced the exact same opponents, had exact same mental barrier, and yet had different results.
I'm tired of repeating myself just so you ignore it so I just copy/paste what I used to say:
Ais with her max lv 5 potential was overwhelmed by Revis even with her wind. However, once she reached lv 6, she could easily defeat the exact same Revis even without the wind. This is totally proof that Ariel is nowhere close to a level boost.
the narration says that although Bete managed to put pressure on Filvis, in general he was never in a dominant position and that he had help and was using UnK that is better than Úlfheðinn.
How about remembering that Filvis is said to be stronger than Revis, and Bete was seriously wounded before that?
Ais's case is very different, since she was in the dominant position the whole time by using tempest-avenger
She was dominant at the start. Even until the end Revis still managed to fight Ais just like she did at the start of the battle because of her armor. It seems like you don't bother to read back the book to check, so I will just put the scene for you to see.
I can’t win.
Aiz understood that from their intense mortal combat.
At this rate, I can’t overcome her. At this rate, I can’t finish her.
The enemy was a genuinely indestructible monster. Her strongest enemy. And desiring the most fitting battle for their final confrontation, Levis consumed even more flesh, becoming even stronger.
My powers!!
It’s not enough. It won’t be enough! It’s really not enough!!! I need more! More
Regarding whether Ariel alone can give her more power than Tempest-Avenger, the scene indicates that the white wind is more powerful than
the black wind
Whether this white wind is a real power or just a normal Ariel, it would be a power that has never been shown before, it's not the Ariel that we always know. Why do you even bring it up if you have doubt about it?
since Ais emerged victorious it must be that she somehow exerted a level 7 power
So after all your sentences saying Ariel doesn't give a full boost, now you say that it can give her a level 7 power? I believe I already told you that injuring someone 1 level higher than you is nothing surprising, and surely you know it.
Finally, if Bete had finished off Filvis, at least there would be a reasonable doubt that perhaps Hati makes him as powerful as Ais and the issue would remain open
How many times do you want to keep ignoring my point of saying Filvis won't die as long as her magic stone is still intact? I guess I will just copy/paste the scene for you again.
I can’t endure this! This is absurd! I’ll burn! I can’t stand this! If I don’t protect my magic stone—?!
The roots across her upper body cast aside all other considerations as they tried to protect the creature’s chest. In the next moment, the flames glowed from the inside, swelled, and then lost their form.
If this is any normal opponent, it would have been a mortal wound. Ais managing to cut Revis' magic stone just prove she is better at killing monsters than Bete.
I guess I will just copy/paste Ais' fight as well since you won't reread it.
In the next moment, one shoulder burst open, sending a set of armor flying as blood spilled forth—it belonged to Aiz. Her body shook violently and sank, but she chewed her lip and stepped forward forcefully, just managing to stay standing.
Levis’s eyes narrowed coolly. The feedback from the slash assured her that she had surpassed her enemy’s blow—
“—What?!”
Her chest was ripped open. There was a track of a single slash running diagonally across her chest. The white flash had cut through the armor of flesh and reached her magic stone, splitting that vibrant, gleaming mass in two.
But regardless of that, we saw that Bete with UnK and Hati was not stronger than Ais nor Hati could strengthen him enough to make it
Did you forget the word here is "probably stronger"?
but plot convenience or not, things went another way, so from the evidence, it cannot be concluded that Bete can be compared to Ais when she uses avenger in no case.
If you put it like that, it must be no big deal for Hestia Familia to travel to floor 49 because they face off a level 5 monster and survived. The same could be said for Ryuu having incredible potential for facing a level 7 having lv9 attack at lv3.
Therefore, it is enough evidence to conclude that Hati plus Úlfheðinn aren't nearly as powerful as Ariel plus Avenger, so Omori's tweet can only refer to an exclusive comparison with Ariel.
The same could be said for Ariel. There is plenty of evidence that Ariel is nowhere near as strong as Hati and Beastification. Again, if you think the context is in term of pure duel, I will just copy/paste what I used to say.
If you want to assume this is a real duel between Bete with 2 boosts and Ais with Ariel then fine. Bete with beastification alone should have been enough to endure Ais's attack with his dual swords. Meanwhile, Hati will keep sucking her wind and use it as Bete power. Ais trying to defend against Bete with her wind will also have her wind taken away. There's not a single possibility for Ais to win. And if Ais can actually defeat Bete so fast that the flame can not grow enough, then it is an entire difference in level. It would mean that Bete with both boosts still has a level equivalent gap to Ais. It is frankly ridiculous. Not to mention, he still has his human fighting technique and experience, along with magic resistance development ability to resist Ais' wind. Bete in that state has all kinds of advantages against Ais, and if Ariel is so powerful it can cover them, it would mean Ariel is equal or more than a level boost.
@Rigel31415 I find it far more of a supposition to say that they cannot do so. And in SO4, when Aiz fought with Ottar it is said that the wind could put their abilities in the same field, and I don't remember it being said that Ariel actually made Aiz a level 6 as a level 5 (and in Vol 3 it became pretty clear that level 5 Aiz with Ariel was definitely weaker than level 6 Aiz).
Hell Finnegas and Beastification are also different by nature from Ariel. Ottar is the only character aside from Bell who can have all his status in S999 or near it and that most likely will show difference in his beastification. As for Hell Finnegas, that's a literal curse that Finn carries from his past life which was enough to make him a level 5, 6. Wouldn't surprise me if it was on the same level as Ariel or even above.
Vana argature or however it is spelled does give a buff equivalent to a level boost. glad to see we agree.
i agree that discussion has shifted more into what beastification can do and what airiel can do.
Lets try it like this.
Airiel
As a level 5 with A in agility, ais with airiel lost to revis.
With the same status and with airiel, she won against udaeus.(side note : revis > udaeus)
Then ais with level 6 did not need to use airiel.
This would imply that airiel was not enough of a boost to be equal to 1 level.
But when she goes, rage tempest, or tempest-avenger, i think it is easily a very strong boost.
When fighting against ottar, it was said that airiel put their abilites in the same field, whatever that means.
To me, this would also mean that a level 6 ais does not need airiel to take on udaeus.
Anyone contesting this claim, please explain why you think this is wrong and not by using another example cause that would be just an example of inconsistency in airiel itself and by extension, oomori's writing. plot inconsistencies cannot be resolved logically.
The only other example we have to gauge airiels true strength without avenger is the boost provided by laurus hildr. anyone who has read the source material, if you can use the numbers to try to guess how much of a boost that was, much appreciated.
Or at least, if bell fought ottar with level boost before getting laurus, how much of a difference that made.
Regardless, airiel is a strong boost.
And if ais used it early in a fight against ryuu, considering ryuu's chant lengths, i would say ais will win. especially considering that ais can keep further strengthening the wind. but that would require her to be blood lusted.
Coming back to things, ais has the ultra rare experience card that oomori hands out to hand out victories. for that, i do not believe there is any inconsistency. yes, ais also had higher status but that does not mean xp card gets ignored.
As for ryuu, as a level 6, she has chain attack and mage abilties. hogni is more of strength kind of fighter. i do not know how ryuu, defensive barrier works so i do not know if ais without airiel can break it or not like hogni did.
Regardless, if ryuu uses agaris, it should not immediately take out ais. she is a fellow level 6. but the boost plus the explosions can overwhelm her. if ais is overwhelmed, she can still use airiel.
As for the other magic of ryuu is concerned, gokou, well, if she has succesfully casted her agaris magic, considering that it can be boosted with some spell key as well, i can imagine with her fairy skill and mage ability, so it can keep up with airiel, allowing ryu to use her concurrent casting skills to cast gokou.
As for her fight against hogni, i believe that if ryuu had surrounded hogni with her 74 lumious orbs, she might have defeated him with her magic alone. his own magic would neutralise stuff in only one direction after all. any contest to either of my claims, please present arguments
Ryuu's agility was also enough to have her recognised as a proper level 6. guess the level boost is just that much.
So ais has got the xp card which if neither side uses magic, means she wins.
Ais wins if she uses her magic in the beginning as well.
If ais does not use her magic and ryu uses hers, she wins.
Ryuu wins if she can succesfully cast agaris alvesynth I believe.
If airiel boost is strong enough, then ais wins regardless.
if Hogni can be defeated by simply surrounding him with spheres, Hedin would have done so long ago. Hogni can use his magic as cover with smokescreen, his sword to block, and his speed to dodge. to be honest, one speed would be enough for him to avoid the spheres.
Ryuu herself mentions that from a distance, she wouldn't even be able to hit Lunoirе. Hogni is better than Lunoire in absolutely everything.
the funny thing here is that in your opinion Hogni can be easily defeated by a bunch of orbs, but ais won't.
Am saying it based on the fact that he used his magic to block an orb from the front. anything he blocks with his sword will still explode. maybe he could dodge. but that is why surrounding. but you have a point. hedin might have defeat him if it was that easy.
I did say she uses her magic and win. however, if ariel is strong enough, ais will not give her that chance.
What do you think?