@Leinad91

Ais can't beat Hogni because he is better than her

If Bete with Hati and Beastification is only as strong as Ais, she would have a power border or outright level 7. No reason to think she couldn't beat Hogni, especially when she knew nothing about Hogni's status

The first battle against Revis doesn't prove anything, since much later Ottar explained that Ais had no chance of winning against opponents that she perceived as people

I always know u want to argue for the sake of argument, but this is the next level. Do you even realize that this has absolutely nothing related to what I said? Both those Revis fights I brought up only have Revis as Ais' opponent. I'm not comparing Ais fighting humans and Ais fighting monsters. In both those fights, Ais faced the exact same opponents, had exact same mental barrier, and yet had different results.

I'm tired of repeating myself just so you ignore it so I just copy/paste what I used to say:

Ais with her max lv 5 potential was overwhelmed by Revis even with her wind. However, once she reached lv 6, she could easily defeat the exact same Revis even without the wind. This is totally proof that Ariel is nowhere close to a level boost.

the narration says that although Bete managed to put pressure on Filvis, in general he was never in a dominant position and that he had help and was using UnK that is better than Úlfheðinn.

How about remembering that Filvis is said to be stronger than Revis, and Bete was seriously wounded before that?

Ais's case is very different, since she was in the dominant position the whole time by using tempest-avenger

She was dominant at the start. Even until the end Revis still managed to fight Ais just like she did at the start of the battle because of her armor. It seems like you don't bother to read back the book to check, so I will just put the scene for you to see.

I can’t win.

Aiz understood that from their intense mortal combat.

At this rate, I can’t overcome her. At this rate, I can’t finish her.

The enemy was a genuinely indestructible monster. Her strongest enemy. And desiring the most fitting battle for their final confrontation, Levis consumed even more flesh, becoming even stronger.

My powers!!

It’s not enough. It won’t be enough! It’s really not enough!!! I need more! More

Regarding whether Ariel alone can give her more power than Tempest-Avenger, the scene indicates that the white wind is more powerful than

the black wind

Whether this white wind is a real power or just a normal Ariel, it would be a power that has never been shown before, it's not the Ariel that we always know. Why do you even bring it up if you have doubt about it?

since Ais emerged victorious it must be that she somehow exerted a level 7 power

So after all your sentences saying Ariel doesn't give a full boost, now you say that it can give her a level 7 power? I believe I already told you that injuring someone 1 level higher than you is nothing surprising, and surely you know it.

Finally, if Bete had finished off Filvis, at least there would be a reasonable doubt that perhaps Hati makes him as powerful as Ais and the issue would remain open

How many times do you want to keep ignoring my point of saying Filvis won't die as long as her magic stone is still intact? I guess I will just copy/paste the scene for you again.

I can’t endure this! This is absurd! I’ll burn! I can’t stand this! If I don’t protect my magic stone—?!

The roots across her upper body cast aside all other considerations as they tried to protect the creature’s chest. In the next moment, the flames glowed from the inside, swelled, and then lost their form.

If this is any normal opponent, it would have been a mortal wound. Ais managing to cut Revis' magic stone just prove she is better at killing monsters than Bete.

I guess I will just copy/paste Ais' fight as well since you won't reread it.

In the next moment, one shoulder burst open, sending a set of armor flying as blood spilled forth—it belonged to Aiz. Her body shook violently and sank, but she chewed her lip and stepped forward forcefully, just managing to stay standing.

Levis’s eyes narrowed coolly. The feedback from the slash assured her that she had surpassed her enemy’s blow—

“—What?!”

Her chest was ripped open. There was a track of a single slash running diagonally across her chest. The white flash had cut through the armor of flesh and reached her magic stone, splitting that vibrant, gleaming mass in two.

But regardless of that, we saw that Bete with UnK and Hati was not stronger than Ais nor Hati could strengthen him enough to make it

Did you forget the word here is "probably stronger"?

but plot convenience or not, things went another way, so from the evidence, it cannot be concluded that Bete can be compared to Ais when she uses avenger in no case.

If you put it like that, it must be no big deal for Hestia Familia to travel to floor 49 because they face off a level 5 monster and survived. The same could be said for Ryuu having incredible potential for facing a level 7 having lv9 attack at lv3.

Therefore, it is enough evidence to conclude that Hati plus Úlfheðinn aren't nearly as powerful as Ariel plus Avenger, so Omori's tweet can only refer to an exclusive comparison with Ariel.

The same could be said for Ariel. There is plenty of evidence that Ariel is nowhere near as strong as Hati and Beastification. Again, if you think the context is in term of pure duel, I will just copy/paste what I used to say.

If you want to assume this is a real duel between Bete with 2 boosts and Ais with Ariel then fine. Bete with beastification alone should have been enough to endure Ais's attack with his dual swords. Meanwhile, Hati will keep sucking her wind and use it as Bete power. Ais trying to defend against Bete with her wind will also have her wind taken away. There's not a single possibility for Ais to win. And if Ais can actually defeat Bete so fast that the flame can not grow enough, then it is an entire difference in level. It would mean that Bete with both boosts still has a level equivalent gap to Ais. It is frankly ridiculous. Not to mention, he still has his human fighting technique and experience, along with magic resistance development ability to resist Ais' wind. Bete in that state has all kinds of advantages against Ais, and if Ariel is so powerful it can cover them, it would mean Ariel is equal or more than a level boost.

@Rigel31415 I find it far more of a supposition to say that they cannot do so. And in SO4, when Aiz fought with Ottar it is said that the wind could put their abilities in the same field, and I don't remember it being said that Ariel actually made Aiz a level 6 as a level 5 (and in Vol 3 it became pretty clear that level 5 Aiz with Ariel was definitely weaker than level 6 Aiz).

Hell Finnegas and Beastification are also different by nature from Ariel. Ottar is the only character aside from Bell who can have all his status in S999 or near it and that most likely will show difference in his beastification. As for Hell Finnegas, that's a literal curse that Finn carries from his past life which was enough to make him a level 5, 6. Wouldn't surprise me if it was on the same level as Ariel or even above.

Vana argature or however it is spelled does give a buff equivalent to a level boost. glad to see we agree.

i agree that discussion has shifted more into what beastification can do and what airiel can do.

Lets try it like this.

Airiel

As a level 5 with A in agility, ais with airiel lost to revis.

With the same status and with airiel, she won against udaeus.(side note : revis > udaeus)

Then ais with level 6 did not need to use airiel.

This would imply that airiel was not enough of a boost to be equal to 1 level.

But when she goes, rage tempest, or tempest-avenger, i think it is easily a very strong boost.

When fighting against ottar, it was said that airiel put their abilites in the same field, whatever that means.

To me, this would also mean that a level 6 ais does not need airiel to take on udaeus.

Anyone contesting this claim, please explain why you think this is wrong and not by using another example cause that would be just an example of inconsistency in airiel itself and by extension, oomori's writing. plot inconsistencies cannot be resolved logically.

The only other example we have to gauge airiels true strength without avenger is the boost provided by laurus hildr. anyone who has read the source material, if you can use the numbers to try to guess how much of a boost that was, much appreciated.

Or at least, if bell fought ottar with level boost before getting laurus, how much of a difference that made.

Regardless, airiel is a strong boost.

And if ais used it early in a fight against ryuu, considering ryuu's chant lengths, i would say ais will win. especially considering that ais can keep further strengthening the wind. but that would require her to be blood lusted.

Coming back to things, ais has the ultra rare experience card that oomori hands out to hand out victories. for that, i do not believe there is any inconsistency. yes, ais also had higher status but that does not mean xp card gets ignored.

As for ryuu, as a level 6, she has chain attack and mage abilties. hogni is more of strength kind of fighter. i do not know how ryuu, defensive barrier works so i do not know if ais without airiel can break it or not like hogni did.

Regardless, if ryuu uses agaris, it should not immediately take out ais. she is a fellow level 6. but the boost plus the explosions can overwhelm her. if ais is overwhelmed, she can still use airiel.

As for the other magic of ryuu is concerned, gokou, well, if she has succesfully casted her agaris magic, considering that it can be boosted with some spell key as well, i can imagine with her fairy skill and mage ability, so it can keep up with airiel, allowing ryu to use her concurrent casting skills to cast gokou.

As for her fight against hogni, i believe that if ryuu had surrounded hogni with her 74 lumious orbs, she might have defeated him with her magic alone. his own magic would neutralise stuff in only one direction after all. any contest to either of my claims, please present arguments

Ryuu's agility was also enough to have her recognised as a proper level 6. guess the level boost is just that much.

So ais has got the xp card which if neither side uses magic, means she wins.

Ais wins if she uses her magic in the beginning as well.

If ais does not use her magic and ryu uses hers, she wins.

Ryuu wins if she can succesfully cast agaris alvesynth I believe.

If airiel boost is strong enough, then ais wins regardless.

if Hogni can be defeated by simply surrounding him with spheres, Hedin would have done so long ago. Hogni can use his magic as cover with smokescreen, his sword to block, and his speed to dodge. to be honest, one speed would be enough for him to avoid the spheres.

Ryuu herself mentions that from a distance, she wouldn't even be able to hit Lunoirе. Hogni is better than Lunoire in absolutely everything.

the funny thing here is that in your opinion Hogni can be easily defeated by a bunch of orbs, but ais won't.

Am saying it based on the fact that he used his magic to block an orb from the front. anything he blocks with his sword will still explode. maybe he could dodge. but that is why surrounding. but you have a point. hedin might have defeat him if it was that easy.

I did say she uses her magic and win. however, if ariel is strong enough, ais will not give her that chance.

>anything he blocks with his sword will still explode.

as long as it doesn't deal direct damage, the best weak wind element orbs can do is epic dispel his cloak.

>maybe he could dodge

his Agility is far better than Ryuu's magic. and he has huge experience vs magic orbs due to fights with Hedin. so he knows how to dodge it right, and his speed allows him to do it. so he could dodge easily. again - even Lunoire could.

>if ariel is strong enough, ais will not give her that chance.

ais with wind doesn't have enough overwhelming power to kill Ryuu before she finishes casting.

Hmm I am going to have to go Ais. There is a reason she isn't in the story... too over powered.

@Longhatruong

Regarding Hogni, as long as Ais remains at level 6, the status will not be a decisive factor. Even if Ais through Ariel reached 1000 points in all her stats and therefore would have more status than Hogni, the difference would not be much, less than 100 points in 2 stats and less than 200 in the other, it's not a difference that can't be overcome by superior combat prowess.

Why did Ais say that she didn't feel able to beat him even though she didn't know anything about his status? She has a kind of gift that allows her to estimate the status of people by mere intuition, it was the same with Argana and Bache, since she saw them she knew they were level 6, in Hogni's case she said she didn't see any opening in his defense and that she felt that she would be cut down if she faced him. Ridiculous or not, she has that intuitive gift.

But the point here is that as long as they both have similar statuses there is nothing inconsistent that Hogni can beat her even if she has more status than him, but both with the same level.

Regarding Revis, your analogy is not precise, to face Revis a level 6 power was necessary, Ais as level 5, could reach a level 6 power giving her all, something impossible for her to do against an opponent she considered a person, Instead, as a level 6, that was her base power, so she didn't have to give her all to exert a level 6 power through Ariel because that was already her base power, so the psychological aspect was decisive in both fights.

You say I don't read your arguments but you deliberately ignored mine, so I repeat, Udaeus is level 6 and Ais defeated him as level 5, which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Ariel allows her to overcome the level gap, at least when she is at the top of her current level, moreover, Ottar confirmed Ais's level 6 potential when she faced Udaeus, this happened in the episode Freya, so there is no doubt about this capacity of Ais since the novel says it literally.

The difference between Revis and Udaeus is that against the latter Ais did give her all, which emphasizes how much Ais' mental block weighed on her combat prowess.

The last thing, in addition to these previous considerations, the novel directly explains why there was so much difference between the two fights, namely: after her first defeat against Revis, Ais reflected that during the first battle, she had totally depended on Ariel to try to match her opponent's power and she had given up fencing, so in her second battle she decided not to use Ariel and go back to basics, winning through his swordsmanship. If you don't believe, check SO3 at the part where she tells Revis that she won't use Ariel this time.

In conclusion, Ais' defeat has nothing to do with her state, but with her mental barriers and her inexperience facing adventurers, making the aforementioned mistake.

Now, regarding her final battle, the question we were discussing was whether Ais at some point in the battle lost the initiative and Revis dominated her, and that didn't happen, the text you posted only shows that Ais didn't have enough power to finish her off, as Revis regenerate herself, she seemed indestructible. When Ais says that she needs more power, she is referring to the avenger quality of giving her more the more she hates, but the fact is that Ais kept the initiative during the whole battle, against a high level 7 monster, so Tempest-Avenger must give her a high status of level 7 and maybe even a of level 8.

Yes, I've said many times that Ariel doesn't give a full level boost, so Ais won't be able to wield a level 7 power with her current low level 6 status, but this is true for normal Ariel, not for the white wind. You say that Ais defeated Revis because of her superior ability against monsters, but Revis didn't count as a monster, because of her looks and sword fighting style, Ais had to fight her with her prowess against people, besides, your proposal has an inconsistency, if it was as you say and Ais defeated Revis with level 6 power since she had disabled Avenger and that was due to her super abilities against monsters, what role does the white wind play? That is to say, why does Omori expressly mention that she exerted the power of the white wind in that final clash if it did not play any role since Ais won only because of her abilities against the monsters according to you?

The level is too important in Danmachi, whether we like it or not, it is the decisive aspect in power, prowess can weigh more than status but only when the level is the same, the scene you put of Ais resisting Revis's decisive attack on her shoulder, bearing the impact and managing to stay on her feet, and then executing an attack so precise and fast that Revis couldn't even see and that destroyed her meat armor along with her magic stone, it's something impossible if Ais had a power of level 6 in that scene. In SO7 we already saw how weak Ais was compared to Revis using only her normal Ariel at maximum power, the Revis in question was much more powerful than that, due to the meat armor, so it is absurd to think that Ais could overwhelm Revis's strongest version when she herself was outmatched by the weaker version, there has to be some other factor for the whole scene to make sense and that factor is the white wind.

If you are not convinced about the level, remember the fight between the waitresses and the Bringars, in volume 16 they defeated them in 50 seconds and in volume 18, for the simple fact of having the same level as them, they did super well, no comparison with the previous fight, they did so well that they even won with some help, so you can see how decisive the level is.

Now regarding Filvis, you use the argument that she was stronger than Revis and that's why it was more difficult for Bete, a valid argument but one that has a typical Omori ambiguity, he didn't specify if he was referring to the normal Revis or the Revis with the meat armor, with this uncertainty this argument cannot be used in favor of Bete.

You also say that Bete couldn't destroy Filvis with Hati because she protected her magic stone, but Revis also protected her magic stone with her meat armor and Ais was able to destroy her, nothing to say, the facts are the facts.

Your last great omission is that you have deliberately ignored that Bete used Uchide no Kozuchi, not Úlfheðinn, that is, that Bete using something better than what he has, performed worse than Ais using her black wind, so I don't see why you conclude that he is a match for her when she uses Avenger.

I already mentioned that of the infinite theoretical strengthening but I repeat it, that Hati has this property does not mean that Bete can exercise it in practice, if that were the case, he would have continued to receive damage and magical power from his companions to exceed Filvis's power, but clearly it was not the case, which shows that he clearly has a limit in his resistance, therefore, he cannot exert infinite strengthening although in theory he could.

Regarding the convenience of the plot, you are absolutely right, for Omori the power system has never been a limitation to determine who will be the winner in a combat, the one that the plot needs to win will always win, whether it is coherent or not. So, in a duel between Ais and Bete or between Ais and Ryuu, whoever the plot needs to win will win, have no doubts about that, that's why holding these debates is only for entertainment for fans, because for Omori there is no rule that limits him forever to do what he want to do.

Your example of the Hestia family is very good, if you had asked me what I see more possible between the Hestia family reaching the 49th floor or defeating Freya's elite, I would have said reaching the 49th floor, but we already know what happened, so don't think it's weird that they go to those depths as they are now, but I just remembered that that was exactly what you wanted.

Lastly, your arguments about why Bete would surely win a pure duel using Úlfheðinn and Hati against Ais using Ariel has a speculation, you are assuming that the absorption of magic is super fast as well as the strengthening but there are no indications that this is the case. What is known is that Hati does not work as a shield, since Bete continues to receive damage from the magic he receives and does not heal or protect him from physical attacks, he cannot bet on a prolonged duel of attrition either because if that were the case, it is what he would have done with Filvis, so his resistance has a limit, which is logical because Hati is a magic then it consumes mind obviouslly. For all these considerations I see reasonable that the victory of one or the other is expressed in terms of possibilities, not certainty for either of them.

I get your point though, due to Ais' lack of duels we've never seen her wield a super high level 6 power through Ariel alone, that's why it sounds so doubtful that she's as strong as Bete when he uses his two boosts, on the contrary, what we have seen, it does seem that Bete would be stronger in that case, but what there is not the slightest doubt is that Bete will never be stronger, not even close to Ais when she uses Tempest-Avenger, so by discard, the tweet can only refer to Ariel.

@Leinad91

Ais as level 5, could reach a level 6 power giving her all, something impossible for her to do against an opponent she considered a person

Regarding Revis, everything you said doesn't change the fact that Ais was facing the exact same Revis in both cases. The mental conditioning of being unable to use full force against humans applies in both cases. If Ariel is really as strong as a level bonus, she would have easily been able to beat Revis just like she did after she reached level 6. Remember that in that battle after she reached level 6, she defeated Revis without even using Ariel. That's the problem. This is clear that Ariel is no bigger boost than a level-up bonus, at least in early SO.

Udaeus is level 6 and Ais defeated him as level 5

We all know she did much better against monsters, and aren't you the one insisting that the current context is fighting humans? Besides, Riveria was also there and healed her.

Ottar confirmed Ais's level 6 potential when she faced Udaeus, this happened in the episode Freya, so there is no doubt about this capacity of Ais since the novel says it literally.

You have already read the thread in Rigel's wall, and you know we decided that this is a retcon. The Revis example is the biggest proof.

Ais reflected that during the first battle, she had totally depended on Ariel to try to match her opponent's power and she had given up fencing, so in her second battle she decided not to use Ariel and go back to basics, winning through his swordsmanship.

I know, but since you brought this up, this literally proves that swordsmanship and level up bonus are way better than Ariel because Ais dominated Revis in their second battle without even using Ariel. Going back to the fighting Bete context, Bete, who has better human fighting technique/experience and 2 boosts bigger than Ariel, couldn't possibly lose to Ais in any circumstance.

Now, regarding her final battle, the question we were discussing was whether Ais at some point in the battle lost the initiative and Revis dominated her, and that didn't happen, the text you posted only shows that Ais didn't have enough power to finish her off

The same can be applied to Bete, who couldn't finish off the opponents due to the super regeneration of the enemy.

the fact is that Ais kept the initiative during the whole battle, against a high level 7 monster, so Tempest-Avenger must give her a high status of level 7 and maybe even a of level 8.

Yes, after rereading the fight, I admit this might indeed be a level 8 power.

this is true for normal Ariel, not for the white wind.

We are literally discussing whether Ariel can be as strong as Hati and Beastification here.

he didn't specify if he was referring to the normal Revis or the Revis with the meat armor, with this uncertainty this argument cannot be used in favor of Bete.

This is just like your point of Ottar saying Ais has level 6 potential as a level 5. Ottar wouldn't know about that because he doesn't witness Ais' battle with Udaeus. This is Omori going through character to tell us that Ais has level 6 potential with Ariel. The same thing applies to Filvis. Filvis saying she is stronger and Finn saying Filvis is the biggest threat is Omori's way to tell us that information.

Revis also protected her magic stone with her meat armor and Ais was able to destroy her, nothing to say, the facts are the facts.

Maybe you should read that part again. She didn't and was taken by surprise.

he cannot exert infinite strengthening although in theory he could.

Our whole conversation is also discussing the theoretical battle between Ais and Bete. If Bete fights Ais with Avenger for real, I would say he will lose. But in theory, he has a chance due to Hati. Besides, as I already said if we go with the other assumption that it is Ais having only Ariel having a chance against Bete with 2 boosts, it doesn't make any sense either.

you are assuming that the absorption of magic is super fast as well as the strengthening but there are no indications that this is the case

In both times we saw Bete using it, the absorption is fast, at least saying it is slow is just your own wish. Furthermore, that's beside the point. What important is that Bete will keep sucking Ais's wind whether she attacks or defends, and things will just get worse for her the longer the fight drags on. That's why the only way for Ais to win that I see is to quickly deal with Bete. But if she can do that it's just like she still has an entire skill boost or even an entire level more than Bete with Beastification.

since Bete continues to receive damage from the magic he receives and does not heal or protect him from physical attacks

Bete has Beastification to increase his endurance and magic resistance development ability. Also, why do you assume Ais dominates Bete so much that Bete is the only one on the defense and receives damage? Beta has better human fighting skill/experience, Beastification with 2 other skills to boost him, and Hati to eat Ais wind as well. On the other hand, how would Ais defend against Bete when Hati keeps eating her wind and her base power is not as strong as boosted Bete? As I have said, if Ais can dominate Bete like you thought, the boost she receives from Ariel would be an entire level boost and that doesn't make sense.

P/S: As Rigel said, we are getting distracted and this conversation should be moved to somewhere else. You can just continue in the thread on Rigel's wall or make a new one on my wall.

This is just me adding my 2 cents here despite the idea of moving this topic elsewhere

The thing is, in the end, when ais and revis clashed for the last time, until then, ais was superior but in that last attack, while revis was caught off guard, revis after exchanging blows with ais, was also sure that her attack was superior to her opponent.