Look at the progression of the Hestia family, Astraea upgraded Ryuu's status as level 4, allowing her to obtain three S ranks, and that was her final status at this level. Despite this, when she rose to level 5 she still had much more excelia available to continue using.

Didn't Astrea said she hold back? Whatever the propotion are she clear give far less to the Level 4 status (+543 points) than she put in the Level 5 (+ 1947).

Loki also updated Ais's level 5 status after her victory, but it was only 20 points, would you say that defeating a floor boss alone with a higher level than her is only enough for 20 points? There were only 20 because Ais's status was already at its limit and she couldn't grow any more, but that doesn't mean that was all she gained.

It is clearly stated that Ais was reaching the limits of her vessel at level 5 but not that she reached it. She still had a little room to grow especially in her lowest statuses who were exactly the ones who grew the most fron the fight agains Udeaus.

If that were the case, Ryuu would also have exhausted all of her excelia in the 500 points that she used in the last upgrade of her as a level 4. However, what we learned from this case is that the status can only grow up to its limit and even though you have more excelia available, you cannot use it to continue increasing your status at your current level and you have to level up to continue using it.

I thought it was pretty clear that the vessel is just a container into which is transferred/conveerted the Excelia stored somewhere on the Falna. You can't put 2 L of water in a 1 L bottle so of course you have to get a bigger bottle or use more bottles.

So according to you, defeating Udaeus alone with a level lower than him is only enough for an adventurer to level up, even though he is already at the upper limit and to obtain 20 points. If so, it seems to me that you did not understand my explanation about Naaza who, having a very low status and without personally defeating his opponent, obtained enough to level up.

What you said about Naaza was interesting but you have forget a few thing & made a mistake:

1st - the Dungeon is not a necesity to obtain Excelia when your are low level.

2nd - We don't know when was Naaza last status update but clear her job don't require to be as regulary as adventurer need so clearly a long time.

3rd - The quality of Excelia is impacted by the personne, someone with a deep trauma and regognise fighting FF also trigger her trauma still decide to fight for his loved one is more impacting in term of self grow that Ais fighting Big Bad Monster number 1293584327.

4th - Naaza herself clear said she barely ranked meaning she just got a D stat who are far more easy to obtain at Level 2 than at level 5 (I think it's mentionned that stat progession become far slower once you become 1 Tier adventure).

The mistake is that your argument "she has not accumulated excelia (She is a pharmacist who does not even explore the dungeon)" is invalided by Naaza magic stat because her magic awakened post retirement meaning she at least 187 point in the unknow time interval between that moment & the status we know without having explored the Dungeon.

@Pluton9, the idea you are trying to sell is that Naaza had a lot of accumulated excelia and that her participation in the fight against the Bringar was only the final push, right?

Let's consider the facts, we know that since she lost her arm she never set foot in the dungeon again, however, she has the 187 points in her magic stat that you mentioned, which leads us to the only conclusion that she increased her level 2 status by fighting against people, not against monsters, something plausible considering that she already lived in Orario during the great Feud.

However, when comparing her level 2 status with Welf's, they are almost identical and even Mikoto already has a higher status than she had. This is relevant because both Welf and Mikoto have recently leveled up and even though they have faced great challenges, their statuses are only at the bottom of level 2 and are not even close to becoming level 3.

Fact that leads us to conclude that Naaza, although she fought after losing her arm, had a progress as level 2 as low as like that of some adventurers who are just starting at that level, which rules out the idea that she would have obtained a lot of excelia because if that were the case she would have no less status than Mikoto.

Thus, the excelia she obtained to raise some of her statistics to rank D and level up could only come from her collaboration in the defeat of the Bringar where I emphasize once again that her role was only a support within of a team (no personal glory).

Now let's give a more general approach to this question, we know that until Ryuu's double level no adventurer had been able to use surplus excelia from his previous level in his new level, which alternative seems most plausible to you among the following?

First, as we had seen, all adventurers start with statistics of 0 when they level up because that was a rule of the system, so no one could use accumulated excelia from previous levels and if there was, this one would be lost.

Second, it has always been possible to use accumulated excelia from previous levels but absolutely no one ever, at any level, or in any statistic, obtained more excelia than was necessary for the level increase, that is, until before Ryuu, absolutely all adventurers leveled up each level with the exact amount for level increase and they never had anything left over to increase their new status by even a measly point in any statistics.

Man, the second alternative seems too convenient to be true.

As a final reflection, I find your position on Ais particular (to say the least), you claim that she obtained the exact excelia to level up and nothing more, but the thing is that she was at the limit of her level 5 (unlike from Naaza) that is, the excelia she needed to level up was not much in contrast to Naaza and she also faced a floor boss (with a higher level than hers) and defeated him alone.

So, enlighten me, if defeating a floor boss alone, with a higher level than the winner, is not enough for an adventurer to obtain more excelia of the necessary for leveling up (despite the fact that he does not need much and that defeating a super opponent is the type of feat that allows you to level up on its own, as in the case of Bell level 1 and the minotaur), so what feats are those that allow an adventurer to obtain more excelia than he needs to level up and have some left over? If defeating a higher-level floor boss by oneself isn't enough so that absolutely nothing is left...

Honestly, I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to accept that Omori reconfigured the way the falna works to benefit Ryuu.

However, when comparing her level 2 status with Welf's, they are almost identical and even Mikoto already has a higher status than she had. This is relevant because both Welf and Mikoto have recently leveled up and even though they have faced great challenges, their statuses are only at the bottom of level 2 and are not even close to becoming level 3.

Naaza ranked with a D stat, it's not really that far away from F especially when she is just a level 2, It's still better than Level 4 Lefiya obtaining over 1100 point while specifying the majority of the Points come from the Knossos battle where she only teams fight & kill Filvis. (Once Again, the stats grow depend on the quality of the Excelia who is impacted by the meaning it has for the person. The feat is simply more impressive when it's a challenge both physical & psychological).

Also you know that HF status in Volume 18 sheet is pre-War Game ? Omori even stated that their only update in Vol 19 Ch 2.

Man, the second alternative seems too convenient to be true.

I think you forget the common sense in this world, most people will just immediately level up & get an immediat power boost rather than postponing (literally mentionned in that only high level Familia do that & even in that case Lefiya only do that till her Magic stat got from B to S which take less than 4 months). The reason why ? The same people take the Hunter DA while it will overall reduce the difficulty & the quality of Excelia gained from killing a monster, the Dungeon killing rate is almost perfect !!! it's simply so dangerous that you have to use every inch of power available to increase the fairly lower survival rate of this profession. Postponing a rank up for years is something only a suicidal person will do which was the case for Ryuu until Bell changed her mind in volume 14. Just treat it like no one knew because no one so far has survived long enough to try until now.

So, enlighten me, if defeating a floor boss alone, with a higher level than the winner, is not enough for an adventurer to obtain more excelia of the necessary for leveling up (despite the fact that he does not need much and that defeating a super opponent is the type of feat that allows you to level up on its own, as in the case of Bell level 1 and the minotaur), so what feats are those that allow an adventurer to obtain more excelia than he needs to level up and have some left over? If defeating a higher-level floor boss by oneself isn't enough so that absolutely nothing is left...

I've already made myself clear, haven't I? Obtaining a rank up doesn't mean you have reach the limit of your currente vessel but it's needed to continue progessing when you are at your limite.

Ais getting closer to her limit does not mean that she has already reached it!

Example: if Ais still has 30 points left before her limit & the fight against Udeaus gives her 20 points & obtains a level up she still have 10 points left for grow meaning that Ais only got extremely close to her limit without reaching it. I must also point out that Bell case is not a good argument because for him it's confirmed that he has exceeded his limits.

The quantity & quality needed to level up depends on the level, obviously a level 2 requires much less high quality Excelia than a level 5. Also, I don't see the issue Lefiya, Tione, Tiona & Bete (like most of the members of Loki Familia) also got a rank up from team fights & honestly their participation/feat against the 59th Floor Demi-spirits in proportion to their level at the time (level 5s VS level 7s monster) isn't really bigger than Naaza's role against Bringar.

The only thing we need from the characters' levels are attacks that can harm the dragon. The rest doesn't matter because we all know they will just miraculously survive in one way or another. Thus, what's truly important are Bell's Argonaut, Ais's Ariel+Avenger, Ottar's Hildis Vini, and Riveria's Vas Windheim.

Funniest part is, Oomori could make a group capable of realistically defeating the OEBD. In spite of how he has destroyed the power scale (though, kinda also because of that), he actually could.

Say Bell hits Level 7. He would have Level 8 prowess. Add in Vanadis Tevere (because why not have Freya help too), which possibly provides a boost worth an entire level, and he'd be Level 9 power wise.

Ais' black wind seems to boost her status even up to three levels (given her fights with Flesh Armor Revis and Delphyne), so she could fight as a Level 9 too.

Once he hits Level 8 Ottar's Vana Arganture could turn him into a pseudo Level 9.

We know Leon is as powerful if not more powerful than Ottar. If he ranked up that'd be another pseudo Level 9.

If you want to add him too, Finn with Hell Finegas could turn into a pseudo Level 8. That'd mean he could be somewhat useful. Gareth, Riveria, Mia, and Allen (given these last two also rank up) may even be potentially helpful too with their strength, resilience, attack power, and speed above their levels if used correctly to support the rest.

Not to mention, of course, Uchide no Kozuchi, which would boost the main force of four pseudo Level 9s to four Level 10s. Heck, even if the dragon was Level 11 they could realistically take it on and win with that. You could even further justify it with the addition of the other five playing out their support roles well.

But then again, this is Oomori. A guy who had all the necessary things to have Freya Familia believably lose, but instead shot himself in the foot by removing Loki Familia of the equation. He could even have had it be a close match, but rather than just remove Haruhime (knock her out at the beginning, for example) nope, he opted for making the alliance ridiculously underpowered.

So despite seeing a viable cop-out, I still won't harbor any hope.

@Rigel31415, You are exaggerating a lot with the power ups, contrary to the evidence, for example:

-> The bestialization of the boarman doesn't give him a whole level, I know this because it was said that it is as strong as that of the werewolf, and we know that the latter doesn't give as much power, I say this because if it were like that Bete would have finished off Allen but we already saw that he was not even injured.

-> I don't know why you already raised the black wind to 3 boost levels, I imagine you say that because Ais was face to face against Delphyne but Astraea Record is a terrible source for estimating power levels.

However, if Ais were that strong, Revis and Asterius would have fallen to her easily, but in those fights they all seemed to be of the same level, which rules out a level 9 outright.

Although I admit that there is some uncertainty about it, since Avenger amplifies its effects against dragons but we don't know how much, so there would be a possibility for 3 levels.

-> Regarding Leon, we know that at least he should have a power up as strong as Vana Arganute, but giving him a full level as you propose creates some problems. We had already talked about it, with such power the help of the dying Zard to the school district wouldn't be necessary, since Leon would have the same level and an ability equal to or better than Deus Ambrosia but with the big difference that Leon is healthy, if that's how things are, why would Zard be necessary?

->The idea of an entire level due to Hell Finegas is complicated because Finn would have been noticeably stronger than his companions in the battle against the demi spirit of the 59th floor, but he didn't give that impression, in fact Ais had a more prominent role than him only through Ariel.

Only Bell's case seems likely, although I don't think Vanadis Tevere gives him that much power, I say this for mere plot convenience, he is a level 5 and already has that ability, if through something that he can obtain so easily (from Freya or Horn) became so powerful, things would be too easy for him in the next challenges, which does not suit Omori's style.

However, if you start adding boosts (Previous Stats, Uchide no Kozuchi, Vanadis Tevere, Laurus Hildr and Astrae Varmas) you could get 3 levels, I think even more.

I give this explanation, not because I categorically reject your proposal but because I don't agree with the qualifier you gave it ("realistic"). If Omori skyrockets the magnitude of the power-up impulses beyond their pre-established powers, that's a plot convenience, so we're talking about a "subrealistic" scenario.

To accommodate this scenario, one could think of Haruhime's third magic, if it triggers the magnitude of the impulses everything would fit.

Like you, I have no hope for something like this, as I explained in the introduction, Omori is not interested in leveling powers so that the winner looks legitimate (like what you are proposing in this scenario), If you look at how they were defeated Freya's executives will realize that there is an unpleasant pattern, namely: none of them were equaled, much less surpassed in power, they all lost due to circumstances much more associated with "bad luck" than any inferiority in their power or prowess.

I don't know if you read all the comments on this post to realize that the idea that victories are due to "good fortune" instead of legitimacy does not displease fans, they even favor it. Until you posted, I was the only odd one here, and if that is a generalized position, it explains well why the Loki family did not participate in the war game and why Omori made the final boss someone invincible (power is the least important thing and for the fans it is fine that it is so).

I ain't exagerating.

Ottar's beastification is never said to be precisely a match for Bete's.

Quote: 己の『獣化』に勝るとも劣らない出力を認める狼人（ウェアウルフ）は、左頰の刺青（いれずみ）を歪めた。

The line in question mentions Bete recognizing the power of Ottar's beastification, but the important part is in bold. Because that is the term used for the comparison, and it can translate as "to rival or surpass". That means Vana Arganture may be just on par with Ulfheoinn, but there is also a possibility of it being superior.

The following lines also compare it to Haruhime's level boost:

『鏡』が映す『獣』は先程までの武人と明らかに一線を画している。

　まるでそれは、奇しくも、春姫（ハルヒメ）の階位昇華（レベル・ブースト）がもたらす光景とも酷似している。

The 'beast' reflected by the 'mirror' is clearly different from the previous warrior.

Oddly enough, it was very similar to the scene brought about by Haruhime's level boost.

Regarding Ais:

1. I am talking about the black wind, which she didn't use against Asterius. She used both Ariel and Avenger, true, but she never combined them. No one saw Ariel turn black in that fight.

2. Revis was overwhelmingly inferior to Ais with her black wind. Even after she donned her flesh armor which was stated to massively increase her physical prowess she was on the losing end, only keeping up because she received a new one each time Ais destroyed it.

Ais was so much faster that she could go behind Revis to attack her and she didn't even manage to react herself, needing her arm cloaked in the flesh armor to block it for her. And even then Ais raised her speed to a point she could outright overcome said defense.

And remember Knossos' adamantite? That which even a Level 6 Gareth, who between his abilities and high Strength stat definitely boasted Level 7 strength, had to destroy his fists to make a hole in just one of them? Not only Ais' strength grew to the point each of her strikes could make a big hole in Knossos' walls and floors, but even just the shockwaves of her clashes with Revis were cracking them.

Not to mention that we get explicit mentions of Ais raising the wind's power output many times over, so it went way past its power at the start of the fight. Point at which it was already enough to utterly overpower Revis.

Oomori wanted to make the black wind OP, and he certainly did.

About Leon, we already have evidence of him being on par with if not being superior to Ottar. Both the statement of him being the only one able to hold him back, and Ottar's own comment indicating Hildis Vini's shockwave is inferior to Leon. The evidence clearly points towards that. If that creates inconsistencies, well, you know how Oomori is.

In Astrea Record we got a statement of Finn boasting power above his actual evel due to Hell Finegas. As for Ais, he only trusted her with delivering the final attack, and we had already seen in the very same volume that Lil Rafaga is a match for a full strength attack of Ottar, a Level 7 with his Strength stat maxed out (not mention his Crush DA). He also at least thought it would give him a chance against Revis in SO7. With her being Level 7, only way for him to stand a chance would be to gain Level 7 power as well.

There is not only a lack of evidence against Hell Finegas boosting Finn's status one level, but we also got evidence that supports it. Also, Oomori is right now practically handing out level boosting abilities like candy. You also have the whole Knights of Fianna events making it an even more special ability than it already was.

If an ability being too OP was what it took for Oomori to not introduce it then things like Alfia's ridiculous power level wouldn't happen. Bell's other boosting ability was outright said to be able to boost his abilities past his actual level, and I can't see Oomori making it weaker than that one. As for ways to not make everything easy: it is as simple as not putting Freya and Horn near Bell when he is fighting.

I didn't read all comments, and neither I am arguing about it. I just saw the post and wanted to vent out about this.

Also, I won't bother to read all comments because, well, no, I am not interested, but not everyone that is fine with such an ending likes the idea. I have a group of friends where it is talked about it normally and treated as a fact not because it is liked, but because it is clear we ain't getting anything better and have come to terms with it. But like I said, I haven't read any comment, so I don't know if that applies to anyone here.

@Rigel31415

Your central point about Ais is that she was able to overwhelm Revis, however, to overwhelm it only takes 1 level, like when Bete overwhelmed Dix, and Revis would be a level 7 at most if we give credit to Filvis being stronger than her, therefore, with an Ais of level 8 would be enough.

Regarding adamantite, I remember that Zard in Astraea record destroyed it easily and he would have a strength of level 8, which shows us that it is something that can be done with this level of power.

As it is, I don't see clearly where you are basing it from when talking about a level 9 for her. Are you saying this because of her fight against Delphyne and that's why you mentioned it in your first comment?

Now regarding the impulses given by Vana Arganute and Hell Finegas, I think we have a semantic problem, when I was referring to a complete level increase I meant the impulse to increase the level plus the current statistics to be exactly at the same point through the boost, for example, if you are a level 3 with stats at B, the full level boost will make you a level 4 with stats at B. Is that what you mean by the level boost for these skills or Are you simply referring to an impulse equivalent to the mere impulse to level up where you would end up with statistics at 0?

If it is the mere impulse to level up, it doesn't seem so far-fetched. In that order of ideas, I mentioned the comparison between Finn and Ais in the 59th floor, because if Finn had become a level 7 with S dexterity and other statistics, he should have seen himself much superior to Ais and the rest in general but he did not give that impression, since with that super status he could have won by himself.

Regarding comparing Ulfheoinn and Vana arganute, it must be taken into account that the abilities are strengthened with the level, such as argonaut that the higher the level, the greater its charging time, in that sense, both can be equally strong in proportion but Ottar has a higher level, that is why its manifestation is stronger. It is a theory that occurs to me.

If we apply this same logic to Leon, in which he increases his level through a skill, but not necessarily the "full level", then he still would not be superior to Zard, since Zard was presumably level 8 with his stats all the time.

On the other hand, the problem with your comparison between Bell and Alfia is that she along with Zard, as Omori said, were singularities due to their power, in that sense they would obviously have super abilities, but it is not relevant because they are very secondary characters. They are characters that are used as models to emulate and surpass.

Instead Bell is the protagonist, he is also expected to develop super abilities but not when he is halfway there. The problem with comparing Ox Slayer with Vanadis Tevere is that the first is extremely circumstantial, basically it will serve against Asterius, while the other will serve him at any time, Omori can separate him from Freya and Horn as you suggest (although I don't see how because Syr remains in The Hearth Mansion all the time lol!) but then why did he give him the ability if Bell's not going to use it? What I imagine is that given his closeness to Freya, he will indeed use the ability and for obvious reasons it cannot be the "Gia bleesing" version of Bell.

However, if we apply the logic of the increase in effect due to level, it would be reasonable for Vanadis Tevere to be as powerful as you suggest when the moment of truth arrives and Bell has obtained the maximum level he will reach in history (perhaps 7).

As a final note, are you saying that in your "friendly Danmachi forum" you have accepted the idea that the defeat of the OEBD will be due to good fortune associated with plot convenience, such as the war game was, because you have accepted that Omori won't try to level the scales of power to give credibility to victory?

Sorry, but I ain't answering back. Like I said before, my first comment was just to vent out a bit. I'm not interested in really following with the discussion, and even less because I simply don't see it happening either way. Take what you will from my previous posts.

This is my last post on this series I don’t think gigantic levels are needed to defeat One eyed Dragon.

The defeat will take a large team up effort on everybody because is ludicrous that Bell can take this monster solo.