@Pluton9

Regarding level 4

That tweet never indicates that it refers only to characters who have debuted; when Omori tweeted that Alfia and Zard were the most powerful characters in the franchise, he clarified that he was referring only to those who had debuted, which shows that Omori does make those kinds of clarifications when they are pertinent, so you have no solid basis to defend your point.

But leaving that aside and focusing on the facts, your logic has another problem, according to your reasoning Anya should be listed as number 1 on the list, because she is level 4, from the Freya family and had already debuted, but she was not even listed and in the Ryuu episode it was quite clear that Ryuu is stronger than the other 3 waitresses...

As for Aisha, during the war game she proved her supremacy, she was the only level 4 on the south flank and no second class adventurer of Freya could beat her, they had to send the Bringar to defeat her and not even they could beat her when they were equal in level.

It's not about that tweet anymore, it's about Aisha factually proved that she is the strongest level 4 and she is not from the Freya family.

Regarding Level 6

In SO10 when Finn, Gareth and Riveria fight together against Revis, it is mentioned that it had been years since they fought together. They can fight as a team and that doesn't mean that they don't have individual duels; it's like a medieval battle between Vikings and Britons, yes, there are 2 teams but in the heat of battle there are individual duels where each one fights against the opponent in front of them.

Finn mentions to Lili that he had fought against them many times and the members of the Loki family mention that before Revis they had never seen Finn lose, which implies that he never lost against them; it doesn't mean much since Omori never defines the fights between relevant members but anyway, it shows that he faced others who supposedly should be better than him and it wasn't like that.

You're right that the Loki trio leveled up because they got involved with Enyo and Freya not until the end, but for this purpose what does that matter? They trained more and improved more leaving their rivals behind, progress is the reward of effort. As for that gap closing soon, I don't see how, the Freya family doesn't explore the dungeon so they have no way to progress, whereas the Loki family does, so the logical consequence is that the gap gets bigger and bigger with each expedition, instead of closing.

As for the efficiency between the methods, obviously the Freya family hasn't had any fatalities, if they don't go to the dungeon who could kill them? But in the last 7 years the Loki family has brought 5 adventurers to be first class, whereas Freya has brought how many? ..........none, they have exactly the same 8 first class adventurers they had since the big Feud, no need to ask which one has the best method to progress.

Regarding MS17's fights, yes, Bete used beastization, what's wrong with that? It's his skill, didn't Allen use his skills to fight? Bete would make up for his smaller status with his skill, but if Freya's executives are so superior why didn't Bete end up in intensive care? We didn't see any post-battle injuries.

We only know that Hogni fought Tiona, we have no way of knowing what else happened so let's not talk about it.

By mentioning the youngsters I wanted to emphasize that the fact that they didn't have any injuries puts into doubt that a Freya member would literally defeat anyone with their same level.

In short, he can say in 2, 3 or nth novels that Freya members are stronger than any other but when it comes to the Loki family, the prooves are missing, where is the evidence that shows they would beat them? Also Raul and company intercepted Freya's members along with Bete and Gareth, were they defeated?

As a final reflection, Hedin told Finn that thanks to Ottar they were guaranteed victory even if the Loki family participated, curious precision to emphasize that it is thanks to having someone with a higher level that they can win if it were true that each of them is stronger than their counterpart of their same level because in that case why would Ottar be essential? Don't you think?

@Leinad91

I think Enduranse should only increase the defense of the body, and survivability depends on level and willpower. Stamina is also level dependent, as Ais stated that this improved better than any of her stats, confirming that it has nothing to do with stats. If the level buff is equally true for Enduranse (a) and Agility (b), then having 2a and 2b would make them relatively equal, and stamina grew more.

The only enemies Finn has faced since the banishment of Zeus and Hera are monsters no higher than level 5. Only Cadmus, Udeus, and Balor stand out, but Finn fought them as part of a group, not alone. He also fights far less often than any of the Loki elite, being a commander and watching the newbies grow.

As for the Prums, they are literally stated as the weakest race, so I don't know what you're trying to say by pointing out their strengths doesn't help them at all. Gullivers strength lies in teamwork, never showing any miracles of dexterity, just precise coordination of movements. And the Gullivers are almost universally recognized as the weakest among the FF elite, at least at the moment. We see someone crushing someone with strength and speed every day, magic and sometimes defense are often mentioned, but we absolutely never once see someone crushing someone with dexterity or fighting someone stronger due to dexterity. you don't have a single skill that only increases dexterity, even though there are such skills for all other stats. it's really a useless stat, and Omori agrees with me, since he never claimed it was useful. Everything else is headcanon without a single endorsement. I agree that it may denote accuracy, but it's too insignificant to pay attention to. if the author isn't paying attention, why should I?

I think we've misunderstood this piece:

"My body has not forgotten the things my idol taught me!

I’m not Freya Familia’s Bell Cranell at all!

No matter how the world might reject me, even if all the deities and people deny me, the techniques and skills engraved in my body reassure me.

My encounters with the Sword Princess and all the training on the city wall were reality. The lessons she taught me are still firmly rooted inside me.

And it’s not just her teachings, either.

Van mentioned it, too—my habit of letting my right arm float upward. It was none other than Lyu who endured hell with me in the Deep Levels who first pointed it out and suggested I try to correct it!

Why hadn’t I noticed it sooner?

Why had I mistaken what they taught me for my own strength?

How egotistical could I be?

I’m weak and can’t do anything by myself! I only managed to get where I am with the help of so many people!"

Bell states that all of his teachings were engraved in his body and he always remembered them. the only mistake was he thought everything he learned was his own power. so he didn't forget anything.

@Pluton9

The battle with Hyacinth proves that only a linear system fits the calculations, with a level bonus of 1000. This may not make sense, but it's exactly what Omori wants us to think. Hyacinth's Strength is 667 (2001), Agility is 519 (1557). Bell's Strength is 2179, Agility is 2639. As a result, we see that: Hyacinth is clearly superior to Bell in Strength, but slightly inferior in Agility; lvl up is 1000; and the system works on the principle of "the sum of all stats for levels + all lvl ups - the same values in the opponent", where 100 is a slight advantage, 500 - noticeable, 1000 - huge (difference in levels). I'll say it again, it may not make sense, but if it works, I don't care, I'm not surprised Omori came up with something like this. in order not to underestimate or overestimate Tsubaki, I think it's fair to give her an average stat value of around 750. that way it comes out that Bell has Strength 4907 and Agility 5869. Tsubaki's all 3750 (though her Strength should be 4000+). looks like huge difference but somehow Van fought that and won, though he might have some Skills so we can't really judge.

I didn't say Hogni's fighting skills give him higher level strength, but the difference between him and Tsubaki is obvious, he's like 2 heads above her in terms of everything about combat. In a similar way, Dix dominated Bell, even when it's stated that the latter was competing with him in status. Also, Hogni should have noticeably higher stats as well as 3 skills, and she still managed to wound him. I don't think this is a bad result for either of them. You can say that Allen would beat Hogni with his magic, but of the two of them, Hogni is the clear favorite in the base state (well, I mean with his personality change magic)

It makes no sense that Bell would stop using his magic, which, in his own words, was the only prerequisite for victory. Rather, Van had simply found a way to counter it. specialty of Bell's magic is speed and surprise, but for someone seeing it for the second time, it becomes not so hard to avoid. Although I agree that Bell is still clearly more powerful overall, because if their first fight had been to the death, Van would have died from his magic, but instead he was healed and allowed to adapt to it.

"It doesn't negate anything but for reminder Bell is also doing this kind of feat & it's again Mid level fighter strange & unstable experiment who are actually weaker than the true counter part." I've lost the narrative.

Different ones had different abilities, but each of them still possessed level 5 status. that was enough to guarantee a victory over a normal level 4 like Raul.

@AlfiaTheNoise

You make your own headcanon about what endurance can do and then deny other claims about dexterity as headcanon? Want to know how useful dexterity is? The answer is it is extremely important. Every single powerful character in the series has high dexterity. Only Gareth might be the only exception who is just above average in dexterity. You have to use the stat for it to grow. That's why mage has low physical stats because they mostly use magic, and frontline warriors in general has low magic stat. If the first tier adventurers can raise their dexterity so high, it's because that stat is important in combat, so when they gain excelia, their dexterity values increases. Else, their stat couldn't go up so high. Omori put dexterity as one of the 5 basic ability of the status, so he thinks that it's important.

I already said why I think so. Dexterity is never shown as a decisive factor or even a helping factor, that's all. The rest is headcanon.

@Leinad91

Nah Omori has just listed a bunched of Level 4 in respond to a question regarding Falgar comabt strengh that all, plus he neither put Alicia & Bell were part of this list so it clearly wasn't made to be a exhaustive classification of every level 4 alive, additionnaly there is the possibility Van character has invented later like Alfia & Haruhime were so not reason to put on this list.

Anya has been expelled from Freya Familia, this narrative status only applied for the actual members not the retired adventurers who reconverted into maid, Hedin disappointed commentary about Mia empty periode prove the tall it put on someone fighting ability.

You mean the Aisha who directly got a level boost at the start of the fight ? I would like to actually see Aisha fighting without Level Boost for once, the last time she had a proper duel at her level was against Bell. Have you forget that Naaza was supporting Aisha with her Crozzo magic sword snipe it’s even mentioned the countless time she was saved by her. Additionally the Gulliver Brother weren’t even fighting seriously till Anya cast her magic.

Never see lost doesn’t mean their was no defeat just it wasn’t notified & that’s only if Commander Finn entered the battlefield which he has done quite rarely, of course no one see you lose when you mostly avoid fighting till your commander role isn’t needed anymore.

It’s not a reward for their effort it’s just the price they had to paid to take a step forward. That Loki familia progression methode is better isn’t the issue the fact they abandoned this methode to that step sooner is the problem. Their level up was paid with their member live which mean they have actually lost comba power to gain it making the overall result less than if they had take a few month longer to get those level up. Especially since this isn’t a combat technics increase but a Stats Boost.

That mean Bete actually need beastization just to be able fight Allen properly especially since everyone other night this fight would have be one sided, actually Bete inability to defeat Allen in a similar amount of time he used to so easily trash A level Boosted Phryne speak volume of the gap in combat ability. There is no post battle injuries because Omori has entirely skip the result this & obviously this battle didn’t lasted longer than Freya & Hestia short conversation for the War Game anyways.

You talk like there was only Loki when actually every were literally every Familia in Orario were attacking. If anything that inability of instant victory when every is on their side proves even with their level up they still aren’t equal.

Hedin didn’t said that because they have someone of higher level but because it’s Ottar that guy need the minimal equivalent of the strongest Half of Loki Familia excutive, a no killing rule pushed by Freya, a formation made to defeat him & a 1 minutes charged Firebolt under limit off just to force taking a 5 minutes rest. Beside you forget that not only people soul & status aren’t a secret for Freya but Adventure can also judge the size of other adventures vessel meanning that Finn & Loki Familia level up wasn’t an unknown factor & it was still if you join they have 50 % of winning.

@AlfiaTheNoise

In that case there is an obvious issue only Alfia can follow Bell in the over S stat territory so the constante increase in his stat for each level mean this tend is only made increase over each subsquence rank up. Following you own calculation

Bell has by at the begining of the War Game an excess stat of 92 + 89 (not final status will server as minimal) + 128 + 380 + 41 meaning even at the start of the War game in the strengh stat meaning a minimal of 730 point meanwhile the status update give hime another 180 point making it 911 in strenght meaning Tsubaki would needed to have reached status above S 982 to still be better than Bell & that's under the assumtioon neither defeating Hyakintos nor the status update Hestia has done by the time of MS chapter 2 have further increase Bell stat.

A wound is the equivalent of what Bell manage to do against Ais or Hedin he was at a lower level, it just confirme Tsubaki isn't near Hogni technical level meanwhile Bell has drastically evolved in every Area reaching the point he even sucesfully punch Ottar who is equal to Hogni in techics, beside Bell as still the option of spamming Firebolt till Tsubaki could no longer bear.

It make no sense but it's not like Bell was able to properly thinking at that time after being psychologically gaslighted by everyone & repeatedly nearly killed by 1st Tier adventurer for days, the fact Bell started to forget thing just hammer how much his mind has been damaged, add it's a battle royal so Bell could have already exhaused his mind capacity from fighting other oppenent by the time he fight Van. Remember that Firebolt can be cast several time at once & even at level 3 could outspeed Ais, The only reason someone could avoid it is when used as longe range attack not at point blank range.

Raul is the weakess level 4 in the show when even the newbie level 4 are better that just not a feat.

@Pluton9

«Plus Hongi isn't even the 2nd strongest of Freya Familia that seat belong to Allen.»

Why? I thought the LN said several times how strong Hogni is in close combat, saying that his combat skills rival Ottar's. He also has high strength (S - 969) and high speed (A - 887).

Combat technic & close stat aren't the only factor to decide a fight their respective race, magics, DA & skill also play their part. As for the fight to put it simply Hogni has the stronger attack but Allen run than a beastified Ottar.

«Combat technic & close stat aren't the only factor to decide a fight their respective race, magics, DA & skill also play their part. As for the fight to put it simply Hogni has the stronger attack but Allen run faster than a level 8 without using his magic.»

I doubt Allen will have high physical strength given his race. Hogni has 3 skills and one undiscovered magic. I think we've already been shown that combat skills can compensate for the difference in speed, so I don't think Allen's case will be special.

And to be honest, I don't recall Allen moving faster than level 8 without using magic. In that case he would have to surpass level 5 and 6 reaction speed like Ottar did using his skill, no? In AR Zard was able to surpass Allen's reaction speed, but couldn't do it to Ottar.

@Pluton9

When Bell notes Freya Familia adventurers are better than those of other familias he is talking about the Level 1-4s. And just because Loki Familia focuses on working as a team it doesn't mean they didn't bother to refine their individual skills. There is evidence to suggest the Freya executives are superior to the young Loki executives, namely their headstart in their adventurer careers, but not to the Loki trio. Ottar also told Ais that his and the trio's advantage over her came from the Zeus and Hera era, experience that every other Freya executive does not have. So that is a plus for them.

Unrelated, but really losing a couple of guys who were Level 3s at most is not noticeable compared to most Level 2s reaching Level 3, over half of Level 3s becoming Level 4, one new Level 5, and even all of that means nothing compared to a single Level 7, let alone three.

And really, I do not get why you guys talk about that as if it matters. All the Loki or Freya executives reached Level 6 and 7 because of an abnormal event that occured to them due to external factors (save Ais, really), not because either of their training methods inherently got them a chance at ranking up.

Hephaestus only surrounded their base. Ganesha did nothing. And the Loki executives were already going after the Freya executives. Those are all of the major familias. From there the power gap is so big it is nothing but a joke. Freya's second class adventurers were outright stated to be the equivalent of twenty middle tier familias. This is like being amazed that all the lower members of Freya Familia can't beat Ottar. Of course they can't when even the strongest of them is leagues away from him.

Just because adventurers can sense another's power level it doesn't mean it always happens, for narrative purposes. Bell couldn't tell Dix was Level 5 until he told him, neither that he was Level 4 tier with his curse active. In Astrea Record Shakti, Adi, Gareth and Riveria all face Alfia, yet none of them ever realize she is a Level 7 before her identity is revealed. The Gulliver brothers didn't sense that the Spirit Soldiers were Level 5s, and only knew until after they fought them. So yes, the Loki trio's rank ups were a secret.

You are also the one that insists that because Van could defeat Bell there is a possibility he has a level boosting ability, yet see no problem with Riveria's DM18 statement that Hedin can beat her in close quarters?

Finn also does agree with Hedin about the game changer that Ottar is in DM18, yet in response to Loki's claim in SO14 all he has to say is that he will probably rank up soon, therefore making it clear he agrees with her in that the current Ottar isn't an issue anymore?

And let's not forget Ottar's fight with Bell, Ryuu and Mia. It is explicity stated Ottar uses his magic only when he can't defeat a foe, so that means those three together managed to stalemate him. And let's treat Bell as Level 6 tier so there is no room to argue. That battle and a pseudo Level 8 Ottar vs three Level 7s are basically the same; three enemies one level below Ottar. So yeah, why not, doesn't seem that certain either side's victory, right?

But 1) Ryuu and much less Bell aren't as skilled as either of the Loki trio 2) That battle was the first time the former bunch coordinated, while the Loki trio has years of experience and a "perfect" teamwork to their name 3) Ottar would be running on a time limit with the Loki trio, which he didn't with the former group 4) Finn has a level boosting ability of his own, whose sole weakness was retconned by Oomori out of existence in Astrea Record

If the first group could match, exactly what gives Ottar a chance in the latter scenario? When he is about to unleash Hildis Vini he also says "If you die, then that is all you were ever going to amount to" which aren't really the words of someone holding back.