They were only labeled as equal opponents before receiving falna. If Allen was always stronger than Hedin, why was he shocked to find out that Hedin thought he was weaker at the time? Are you also surprised by the fact that you are stronger than someone you've already defeated many times? If this is true, why did Hedin come out with minor facial wounds after his fight with Allen & Gulliver, when he should have been beaten? Allen couldn't defeat a very wounded Hogni (without using magic) who was deprived of one of his main abilities, so I highly doubt he can defeat Hogni when they are both at full strength (Allen was also weakened, but to a much lesser extent)

Well, now that you've admitted that combat skills can make up for the difference in speed, I think it's clearer why I think Hogni is stronger. Why do you think Ottar wouldn't have caught up? Extremely wounded Ottar with the skill and his huge sword could catch up with Bell, so he needed Mia and Ryu's help to hold Ottar off. I think a healthy Ottar without skill use and sword has a good chance of catching up to Bell.

I remember one person made a post in which he translated a snippet of Zard clashing with Allen and Allen not having time to put up his spear for defense. Maybe we should ask the admins how it was in the original version? Because the fact that Allen manages to defend himself despite further screaming that he didn't understand anything looks extremely odd to me..

It don’t change much Falna isn’t an equalizer & if Higni was stronger than Hedin at that moments he too would be recommended for the seat of vice captain it’s not like that title have much value when the brain of this familia is Hedin.

By weaker they doesn’t talk of power nor skill but about Allen spirit & resolve awho have weakened since he banished Anya.

We don’t see the fight nor how they ended, only the after match & judging only by the face isn’t correct when you can hide a lot of injury behind your clothes.

Much lesser extent ? I doubt Anya magic is maybe not a full level down in stats but it’s close with additional weakening for DA, skill & magics while Hogni was really exhausted but everything else work perfectly.

Put that into perspective the gap between Bell & Ottar wasn’t that high compared to what Hogni has to deal with Allen. Why Ottar wouldn’t ? Firstly because Bell was still the faster one albeit by paper thin margin, Ottar is a fighter not a runner & even Bell whose specialty is running away needed his DA to escape base Allen. Also Ryuu & Mia only hold Ottar for like half of the 1 minute charge Grand Bell Punch Bell deliver meaning Bell was able to stay on his own for dozens of seconds before their intervention.

Would be better to have directly the resume complet on the AR page but we do with what we have.

Hogni has a much better status thanks to falna. He has a new magic through which he frees himself from mental limitations by summoning his strongest personality. Also thanks to falna, he can use his cursed sword ability much more often. He also has a handy blast magic that creates a smoke screen that can be combined with his cursed sword property. His close combat has already been stated several times to be superior to Hedin even without falna. If that's not an advantage he got thanks to falna, I don't know what is.

It might make sense, but Bell noticed the wounds under the Gulliver brothers' armor, but didn't say anything about Hedin's condition (other than the wounds on his face, but it was also said that he took the first attack on himself). The fact that he came out of the fight against Allen and the Gulliver brothers in pretty good condition, managing to wound the latter, is already a good achievement considering how angry they were.

Allen was still level 6, with skills and DA, albeit weakened. But Hogni's condition...

He couldn't use the extension of his sword, due to his lack of endurance. At the beginning of the fight, he didn't use his strongest personality that reveals his potential. His reaction speed also decreased in the fight against Ryu, and then it got even worse when he got hit by an AA and was knocked out. Hell, Hogni was so weakened that a first-class adventurer could have easily dodged his blow. And when Hedin hit him, he almost passed out. If Allen couldn't beat Hogni like that, I don't see how he'll fight against Hogni using Dainsleif at full power.

Bell is faster because he was faster? I asked for a reason. Just because Ottar is a fighter doesn't stop him from having S rank speed (989) and moving so fast that level 6 and unable to follow his movements. Even a few seconds' head start for a first-class adventurer is enough to break away by a considerable fortune, Mia and Ryu had bought enough time that Ottar couldn't quickly shorten the distance. I don't think Mia and Ryu would even get in Ottar's way and waste endurance if Bell was fast enough to run away from Ottar. And you're still forgetting how wounded he was and how heavy a sword he was carrying.

You know that the times they decided the vice-captain happened after Hogni got the Falna? That basically means whatever he got from it till that point on wasn't enough to be considered stronger by Hedin, even worse this election happened when Anya was still an active member meaning Allen magic hasn't awaken yet.

At the end of the days, the judgement was left to Hedin, no less, no more.

Good summary of Hogni's condition but you forget that Hogni wasn't alonein this fight he has the support of the level boosted Anya who was a source of exploitable internal turmoy on Allen. & Honestly it's was more epic to see Hogni voicing his own feeling trying to fix their family while battling his own self esteem issue.

Yep but there is a foundamental difference between them, Ottar is a boar who fight, Bell is a rabbit who run away it give the principal idea, you don't ask why a boxer who has approximatly the same speed as Usain Bolt can't catch him during a marraton when he can effortless punch him on the ring, their technics respective are base on different principel. You misunderstand something at that point of the fight Bell was actually trying to land a blow on Ottar not running away which mean he needed to stay close enough to act before Ottar rebuild his absolute defense.

I have no more to said, maybe there were better way to explain it but I think I've cover all the points.

@Pluton9 I would advise stop arguing with that guy about Hogni. You are just wasting your time.

I think we have already said that it was not a question of combat strength, but moral and fortitude. Hogni is extremely weak in this regard, it makes perfect sense to give the post to Allen, who is trying his best to protect his sister.

Anya didn't really help much in the battle, Hogni saved her most of the time by blocking Allen's spear over and over again. And actually, Anya was shaken there the most & she lacked synch, which is also a minus. At one point, Hogni could have hurt Allen badly with his magic, but he didn't (Allen barely dodged, but wouldn't have been able to if Hogni had also started to shorten his distance with him). In general his condition was so terrible that even with the support in the form of Anya, they still should have lost to Allen even when he didn't use his magic, but he kept holding on.

But I repeat, what makes you think they are equal? Bell was running away, but later turned around and ran straight at Ottar, if he had the opportunity to charge the argonaut further he would have taken it, but since he didn't, it was most likely because Ottar was catching up to him. And Ottar's absolute defense in that case wouldn't have been able to withstand the force of a full Argonaut (unless he was using his own magic).

@Pluton9

Van could occupy a place in that ranking, he could even be second after Ryuu and that would not solve Anya's problem. You say that she does not count because she left the Freya family and because retirement weakened her, well, we already clarified that retirement did not weaken her and she is still in great shape and although she is not an active member, all her combat skills were learned in Folkvangr, following the doctrine of the Einherjar. She would be like a graduate of a university that is no longer linked to the institution but learned everything they teach there.

So, Anya, a member of the Freya family by training although not by membership (which does not matter for this debate) is not the strongest of her level, which proves that Freya's adventurers are not necessarily stronger than anyone of other family.

Van's statement would serve to say that some members are stronger than their counterparts from other families, and from what was seen in the war game it is quite reasonable to say that most of its members are stronger than those of other families, as indicated in MS17 - 18 and in the episode Freya. But, it is also demonstrated that it is not a universal rule that applies to all cases.

All this started because your original comment was: "It's clear that whatever are Loki Familia adventurer norme for combat ability by level it's far inferior the norme of Freya Familia adventurer", arguing that in the mentioned volumes it was said that any member of another family (Loki included) would be inferior to them. A generalization that at least regarding the Loki trio there is no evidence that it applies.

I don't understand why you think that Tsubaki's defeat at the hands of Hogni proves that Freya is superior, Hogni has more level, experience and is a pure warrior, Tsubaki, although she knows how to fight, is still a professional blacksmith. Hogni's victory is the most natural result but that doesn't prove that if he faces another level 6 who is also a pure warrior he will win.

You are right in one thing and that is that the Loki trio has lacked worthy opponents that allow them to demonstrate their ability as warriors, unfortunate for not having antagonists available to use in the plots. But Omori's position has been ambiguous in this regard, deliberately avoiding any precision between who is better than who among the elites of Orario.

You also didn't answer the question of Aisha, we saw how Ottar was defeated by 3~4 who were one level below him, being him better than all of them, therefore, even if Aisha was level 5, 2 or 3 level 4 of Freya should be able to defeat her, especially if they are better than her, why didn't that happen? To me personally it seems clear that it was because she is better than them.

I remind you that the Einherjar have no problem attacking several of them to the same opponent, even if they do it in a disorganized manner, as they did against Ryuu.

I speak of partial victory because Aisha landed a blow that left him momentarily knocked out. It is not a great excuse to say that it was because he was "disturbed." Maintaining concentration is an indispensable virtue for a warrior who prides himself on being "better than anyone else." And no, Alfrigg was not weakened. In the whole battle, the only blow they had been able to give him was the explosion of the magic sword that sent him flying, which is not much. Don't take away Aisha's merit!

Then when he got up and Aisha, Lunor and Chloe (3 level 5, not 4 as you said) couldn't defeat him it was a plot armor, if he had such power why didn't he use it from the beginning and finish them off to avoid complications? Inexplicably he became much more powerful than moments before, as if he had become a super saiyan XD! Maybe he has an ability that makes him stronger when his 3 brothers have fallen but that's speculation.

On the other hand, you oppose the idea that Bell's power now remains at its real level, it would certainly be conflicting if Aki was as powerful as him as soon as they both reached level 5, but for Bell to be stronger than her he doesn't necessarily have to be a level 6, it would be enough to be the strongest at his level but staying at this one, there's no need to overstate things for that effect.

So that's why you insisted that Van has an ability that raises him to level 5, I didn't understand why, I was about to think that you were a radical fanatic of Freya. I honestly don't see it as that complicated, Bell stopped using Ais's teachings because he doubted that they were real and when he verified that they were, he became much more powerful to the point of managing to hit Hedin, something he hadn't been able to do until that moment. It's a simple symbolism that Ais' love strengthens him, something simpler and easier to fit into the plot than the fact that Van has an ability worthy of the captain of his family being a simple middle manager.

@Leinad91

Did you know that fighting is related to physical activity while school is related to the mind ? Physically things have a bad tendency to dull over time when they are not maintained properly, even if you keep your technique, it is natural that there is a difference between constant training and occasional training. Beside Hedin & even Ottar confirmed Mia wasn't at her best so don't know why you think Anya is in better shap than her ? If anything Anya shap is better she is the only waitress who occasionally partake in Ryu training being decribed as being to competive.

Have you at least asked yourself where did you rank Anya in all of that ? Because neither Chloe nor Lunoir were pushed over during their fight against Ryuu & Anya wasn't any worse against Chloe while having being exposed at the same sleep drug as Ryuu.

I don't remember having called this rule universal, not it change My statement considering Loki Familia in general, it just don'tt change the fact they specialise in team fight while Freya is duel give a resonnable explaination while at the same level they would be better in a 1 vs 1 situation when they can't relied on no one else but themself especially for the Loki Trio who are now level 7 so they have to be compared to Ottar. Strangelly I though Riveria declaration would be counted as an evidence ?

Didn't you said yourself Tsubaki wasn't worst than Loki exective (the trio is probably exluded) during the 59th Floor expedition ? You also said she beat Phryne who for all I know is a dediacted warrior. So while Level boosted she is better than high level 6 Phryne who is a warrior, do we agree ?

Because you call that a defeated ? Bell was exhausted Mia & Ryuu are out off fight while Hedin got is 1st mind own in years meanwhile Ottar bend a knee & accepted to take a 5 minutes rest so Bell save Freya, I don't call that a defeat & neither the narration of the MS 18 SS focusing on Ottar did, at best you can all it a draw & this would still be doubtful because Ottar was restain by Freya's directives.

At this point, any moment a villain knocks the hero on the ground for 30 seconds would also be considered a partial victory, even when the hero gets up with renewed resolve, strength, courage & ended up defeating the villain. What do you want me to say ? They are still people not freaking robot it's only natural a big brother like Alfrigg is disturbed when his younger brothers are take down, Ais wasn't in any better mental shap when Revis come claiming to have defeated Finn & throwed the broke piece of his spear as prove in SO 6. I am pretty sure all the gulliver were still under the effect on Anya magic so Alfrigg was effectivly in a weakened stat.

Omori's tweet just included random level 4s, or probably just the most popular ones (except unexpectedly for all Falgar). To say that this represents the actual power distribution between all level 4s in Orario is to believe that Raul would be stronger than any level 4 from FF, Bell, Chloe, and Lunoire, which is not the conclusion of a mentally healthy person. I don't even see how that can be an argument.

@AlfiaTheNoise

How would you know that the tweet only included "random" level 4s or only the most "popular" ones? Who are you to speak for Omori? maybe are you part of his executive staff?

That he didn't include characters like Van because they hadn't debuted is a valid argument, but only half-baked, because it's Omori who has to clarify that he didn't include them, not you.

Even assuming that he only took into account those who had already debuted, you still say that it's false because the characters that you think should be included aren't. So Omori needs your permission to say that Raul surpasses Chloe and Lunor!

As for popularity, didn't you see the DanMemo events and now the Danchro ones? Waitresses appear very frequently in them as relevant characters, especially in the latter's events. So no, their exclusion from the ranking is not due to them being "unpopular" characters.

What I see is a toxic fan who didn't like the ranking because it's not how he wanted it to be and he believes that his word weighs more than the author's, he even speaks on his behalf imposing clauses that according to him, were the ones that Omori used for that effect.

In one thing you are right, I wasn't a mentally healthy person when I felt sorry that you were banned from this wiki and I had even less mental health when I interceded for you with the administrators so that they would be more lenient with you. Because yes, I know perfectly well who you are!