All posts by Leinad91
I eagerly await the moment when Bell reunites with his grandfather Zeus and uncovers his true origins, along with everything related to his birth families, including their struggle to complete the three great quests and their defeat against the OEBD, aiming to make the dragon's defeat Bell's personal maquia.
I would also like Bell to receive something from them for being their sole survivor, similar to how Ryuu received Astrea Record due to her affiliation with the extinct familia. This would serve to empower Bell as the main combatant against the dragon, since, by level, it doesn't seem like he will become the strongest. Moreover, there must be some narrative reason for Bell to be their last survivor, and a skill derived from their ancestors would fit well for that purpose.
Let's analyze what Hedin said to Mia:
"What a pathetic display, even with you here, Mia."
"… Stop babbling. I have a small gap in my strength."
"Then fill it immediately. If you’re going to sit back and sleep peacefully, we’ll all be crushed."Mia accepts that she has a small gap in her strength, which implies that she has lost a bit of physical condition, but what is really interesting are Hedin's demands and expectations of her.
Asking her to "fill her gap immediately" means that she has not weakened and can return to full physical form during that fight; I repeat, this is not real life, we are talking about a fantasy world. I don't see it as that complicated to understand, the falna numerically indicates the magnitude of physical abilities, do the statistics deteriorate by not using or practicing them? ... no. The value of the statistics is maintained, which means that no matter how many years pass, the adventurer will retain the strength, endurance, agility and dexterity that are engraved on his back, that is, the body does not weaken due to retirement.
You could argue that the combat skills have deteriorated because they are not engraved on the falna, but Hedin trusts that Mia will recover her fullness immediately and tells her that if she does not, everyone will be crushed, that is, he is placing his faith in her to win, an expectation that would be ridiculous if retirement had really weakened her irremediably.
In conclusion, considering that the status and therefore the body do not deteriorate with time and Hedin's confidence in her immediate recovery, it is clear that retirement does not weaken the adventurers. Conclusion consistent with what Ottar said, where he only talked about Mia's stagnation (she's still the same as she was when she left the family), and he didn't tell her at any point: "you're weaker than you were when you were active" or anything like that.
This whole retirement weakness thing comes from you trying to justify Anya's absence in the ranking due to her retirement weakness, implying that if she had the condition she had in Folkvangr she would appear in the ranking because as a member of Freya she would be better than any other level 4.
But as you see, that's an assumption based on trying to apply a real-life condition to the world of Danmachi, in which the evidence indicates that if you retire you stagnate but you don't weaken. Argument that I used to prove that not every member of Freya is superior to their counterparts from other families, given that Anya wouldn't occupy the first place in the ranking in any case. However, if you already accept that it is not a universal rule, we can conclude this argument.
As a final note on this, we have no way to compare Anya with her Folkvangr version but her current version is very powerful, has had magnificent results and has received multiple praises from the author, so saying that she was weakened by retirement, not only lacks sources to corroborate it but is a mere assumption based on real-world logic that does not apply in Danmachi.
However, it is an interesting topic to analyze where the 3 waitresses would be in the ranking; by 2020 there would not be much problem in them being below Raul, but now, do not think that I do not share your reservations about it.
The first thing is that Anya is not necessarily better than Lunor and Chloe for not falling to the Bringar, the novel is clear in explaining that she had an advantage in knowing their fighting methods, that was a key factor that the other 2 did not have. According to this reasoning, Lunor and Chloe would be better because they defeated Grer and Dvalinn while Anya did not show the ability to do so.
Could Raul fight as well against Ryuu as Lunor did or could he defeat any of the Gulliver brothers in single combat with a level boost? Honestly, he does not give that impression, although he has some things in his favor such as being an expert in martial arts as he demonstrated against Valleta, or that he has shown himself to be almost at the level of Anakitty, being surpassed by her only in the battle of Knossos, since he had a rescue role, which did not allow him to obtain much excelia. If we had seen more fights we could get an idea of what each one is capable of, hence why I insist that this series urgently needs more antagonists.
Also, you are being unfair by asking Raul to defeat Valleta to demonstrate his ability. How would he defeat a level 5 in single combat? But Anya has not achieved something similar either, or who are you referring to? Which higher level opponent did Anya defeat?
I've been able to notice that you only question Raul's position on them, should I interpret that as you have no qualms about accepting that they would go after Anakitty? A clear indication that I see that Aisha is stronger than them is that she was the one who was sent against Alfrigg, the strongest of the brothers, it is a common trope to send the most powerful against the most powerful.
Regarding Van, you deliberately omit that Bell was not in good shape, remember that Hogni said that his combat abilities were very basic, that he only showed genius when he had to repel deadly attacks, but could Van defeat the Bell that recovered and injured Hedin? Also, defeating someone in a duel does not necessarily prove that you are better, like in chess, sometimes the world champion loses a game against another grandmaster, but that victory does not rank him on the top of the world podium; to determine who is better, a match is played to 12 games generally where the one with the best score is proven as the best of the 2.
Omori said that Ais was stronger than Tiona, Tione and Bete but that in some duels she can lose against them, but Ais is still the best. Van could defeat Bell occasionally but couldn't Anakitty do the same? We have no way of knowing; However, the speed with which you level up is a clear indication of talent, look at all the powerful characters, all of them are characterized by having leveled up quickly, like Ais, Allen and Ryuu who went up to level 2 in a year. It's not conclusive proof but at least it's a clear indicator of talent that favors Anakitty over Van.
There would be much more clarity regarding these issues if Omori decided to end the fights, apart from the fact that there are almost no antagonists he also doesn't allow the duels to develop, how I hate this habit of his!!
From what I remember of the duel between Ais and Phryne, the latter was surprised by not being able to defeat Ais despite having much more status than her, which doesn't speak well of her, since Ais without her wind can only count on her lower base status. As for Bete, I don't mention beastization explicitly because it's his skill, everyone fights using their skills, so I don't see the need to point it out. As for it leveling him up to 7, I'd really love that to happen, but Omori isn't usually very precise when indicating the magnitude of the boosts, so it's premature to just assume that.
Compare Phryne and Allen's performance against Bete, you see a clear contrasting difference, and it's not due to the status since this difference wouldn't be much, so you can see that Phryne isn't a big deal, so it's not an incommensurable merit that Tsubaki is stronger than her. It seems more enlightening to me that Bete, Tiona and Tione will fight in the same adventure as her, leveling up and she won't, which denotes inferiority on her part despite being much older than them.
That's where you clearly see how the difference in professional approach has a clear effect on skill and development, perhaps if Tsubaki were a full-time adventurer she would be at the same level than them, but she isn't, she's a blacksmith.
As for Ottar, the second Hildis Vini, the one that Hedin deflected, he threw it with the intention of they overcome it, but if they couldn't and died, he thought it was because that was as far as they could go, so the question remains as to whether Ottar really held back in all stages of combat.
Ais doesn't specialize in duels, but in monsters, and losing her composure denotes inexperience on her part, but it's not her who has to prove that she's better than any other level 6 from another family, so it's not a big deal that she doesn't appear unfazed by a shock. In fact, the Gullivers were already nervous since they were separated, feeling fear of having to fight alone exacerbates the question of whether these level 5s would actually beat anyone else, in fact, with Grer's defeat at the hands of Lunor we already know for a fact that it's not like that.
Man, I find Alfrigg's thing very forced, the trope of strengthening through heroic resistance is common in shonen, but his power was 3 or 4 times what he had moments before, so, unless he has a very broken skill, it was a plot convenience so that the girls wouldn't attack Allen and he could continue his dialogue with Anya and Hogni and then display his magic.
You're applying a real-life rule to an anime, yes, in real life retirement deteriorates abilities but does that mean that in the Danmachi universe it's also like that? The evidence clearly doesn't suggest that's the case. Let's analyze what Ottar said to Mia:
"–Mia, you've weakened.
–...!
–You've stagnated, and I've moved forward. Maybe that's all there is to it. But even so… right now, I'm above, and you're below.
Lv. 7 and Lv. 6.
Even in a simple comparison, it was clear that Ottar was superior. If anything, Mia was the odd one for challenging him while ignoring that absolute Level difference.
But even considering that, Ottar was saying that she had weakened. As if betraying his persistent attachment to the wall that had once been in front of him, as if he had wished for someone stronger than himself."Ottar does not say at any point that Mia is weaker than before, he says that she is weaker compared to him, since now he is stronger than her; He literally tells her that she has stagnated while he has moved forward. Stagnation means to remain the same, neither weaker nor stronger.
Ottar mentions Mia's "weakness" due to his disappointment at having overcome the wall that once stood before him, as he wished there was still someone stronger than him. In short, it is a comparison between the two of them, not between the current version of Mia and the one from before.
Regarding Mia's power as such, it is of particular interest the statement that highlights how "strange" she is to be able to challenge him ignoring the absolute difference in level, she was able to fight him in single combat, how many characters have been able to sustain a hand-to-hand combat against someone with a higher level and have come out well from the duel? Compare her performance with that of Ryuu vs Ais that only lasted 3 minutes and Ais defeated her with a single blow, or compare it with the fight between Freya's executives against Ottar in the episode Freya where there were 6 against Ottar and they did not fare better than Mia alone.
So has Mia really become weaker from retirement? If you still think so, please provide evidence to prove it, but don't justify it by assuming that something from real life applies in an anime.
Regarding Anya, Omori has always referred to her skills in glowing terms, you yourself point out that Chloe, who was in top form at the time, couldn't defeat her and Anya had already been retired for at least 4 years in that battle. There's also the fact that I already mentioned that despite her 10 years of retirement she could still defeat a lot of level 3 berberas of the Ishtar family, and in volume 14, when the maids went with Tsubaki to rescue Ryuu, Omori said that this group was so powerful that it was very close to being first class. As you can see, praise and more praise and not a single reference that indicates that she has weakened due to her retirement.
If you are going to justify that Chloe and Lunor should be very high in that ranking because Ryuu could not defeat them easily, well it is a valid argument but that coin has another side, in volume 16 the 4 waitresses faced the Einherjar and they did not defeat them, they could not even hurt them and it was a battle long enough for Bell to flee with Syr and lost the trail of their pursuers, something quite delayed because they had to swim to land, drain off the water and walk calmly across the heroes' bridge. Curious result if the Einherjar are stronger than anyone with the same level and the waitresses are in poor shape due to their retirement, don't you think? And you can't say that among the waitresses there is expert teamwork with which they compensated for their inferiority for obvious reasons.
That Ryuu didn't easily defeat them isn't proof that they occupy the podium among the level 4s, Omori very rarely ends fights, he never allows any of the battles between the Loki and Freya families to end for example, just like he didn't allow the battle between Tione and Argana to end, so the fights between Ryuu and Lunor/Chloe not ending is just a typical Omori pattern of behavior, not an indicator of absolute power. If we're going to use this reasoning as proof then Bete would be on the podium of the tier 6's because Allen didn't defeat him.
Your argument is strange, you say that Anya has been weakened by her retirement but you also suggest that she should be ranked because she was on par with Ryuu, so in the end do you think she has been weakened by retirement (in which case show the evidence) or hasn't she been and is still in great shape as I suggest based on her excellent performance and the praise that Omori always gives her?
Answering your question directly, yes, I have wondered where Anya, Lunor and Chloe should be in that ranking; I don't see a problem with Chloe and Anya being below Raul, especially Chloe who fights mainly with poisons and sneak attacks not through combat skill. Given that, at the end of the day, Raul is worthy of Anakitty who was ranked as one of the best level 4.
Where I do see problems is with Lunor, she defeated Grer in fair combat, besides Aisha I have serious doubts that the others in the ranking can do the same, perhaps she should occupy a place in that ranking. But let's keep in mind that it was made in 2020, it wouldn't be the first time that a character becomes more powerful than what was originally constituted, like Ottar who in SO4 couldn't defeat Loki's executives and then it turns out that at least 3 level 7s are needed to defeat him.
However, regarding the topic at hand, it doesn't matter if Lunor should be on the podium or not, since she is not of the Freya family. The one who should be there is Anya and she has not shown anything concrete that puts her there, and as I explained at length, your argument of weakness by retirement is not valid unless you can prove it with evidence from the novel itself or the author.
You didn't expressly say that the rule was universal but you did say that Freya's members were stronger than those of any other family including Loki's and you didn't make or accept any exceptions, that's another way of saying that it's a universal rule.
You argue that the Freya family's specialization makes them better at dueling than the others, well in most cases yes, but from level 4 onwards I see uncertainties in this regard, as in the case of Anya as we have talked so much about and regarding Van, I also don't see it so clear if he should occupy a prominent position in that ranking, logically he must be weaker than Anakitty, he is over 30 years old and is still at level 4 and Aki at 21 is already level 5, there must be a reason! and keep in mind that Aki is almost the last in the ranking!!!
I'm not comparing the Loki trio with Ottar because that statement was made when they were level 6 as you well know, be fair! As for Riveria, yes, she is inferior in combat to Freya's level 6s, but when it was said in Astrea Record that Finn was superior to them only being inferior to Ottar you rejected it, you said that it is only Valleta's subjective opinion so it does not prove anything, as if she being the commander in chief of Evilus did not know her enemies! You accept statements when they are in favor of Freya but not when they are against, questionable attitude I would say.
Regarding Tsubaki, no, I did not say that she was better than the other Loki executives, there must be a reason why the other 3 level 5s rose to level 6 due to that expedition and she did not. Yes I said Tsubaki is stronger than Phryne but this one is very inferior to Loki's executives, don't you remember that she couldn't beat Ais without wind and then Bete defeated her in 1 second, so being stronger than her doesn't prove that Tsubaki is at the level of Loki's or Freya's elite, man she is a blacksmith by vocation, why would she be better than genius warriors by profession?
I consider it a victory over Ottar because he didn't die due to Bell's compassion, if the last blow hadn't been a fist but a stab in the neck with Hakugen, he would have died, but anyway, both sides were restricted to not killing so it wouldn't be a real battle for either side, although there is the doubt of whether Ottar really held back in all phases of the battle because his blow with Hildis Vini could well have been fatal.
Losing your composure because of a brother-in-arms' defeat is a symptom of inexperience, especially if it's going to lead to your own defeat. Ais getting upset over Finn's defeat is acceptable, she's still a child and doesn't boast about being better than anyone else; on the other hand, Alfrigg making that rookie mistake raises serious doubts about whether he's actually better than any other level 5 as is is presumed.
I name it a partial victory because Aisha defeated him until Omori used the plot armor, Alfrigg didn't get up with "renewed determination, strength and courage", he got up with a convenient boost. When they were fighting 4 vs 4, the Bringar weren't able to defeat them, but then when they were fighting 1 vs 4, that 1 was so strong that he could take on all 4 at once, if he were so strong why didn't he use that power when they were fighting in groups? the Bringar would have won immediately. In short, I name it a partial victory because while Omori didn't use the power of the script, the girls won.
How would you know that the tweet only included "random" level 4s or only the most "popular" ones? Who are you to speak for Omori? maybe are you part of his executive staff?
That he didn't include characters like Van because they hadn't debuted is a valid argument, but only half-baked, because it's Omori who has to clarify that he didn't include them, not you.
Even assuming that he only took into account those who had already debuted, you still say that it's false because the characters that you think should be included aren't. So Omori needs your permission to say that Raul surpasses Chloe and Lunor!
As for popularity, didn't you see the DanMemo events and now the Danchro ones? Waitresses appear very frequently in them as relevant characters, especially in the latter's events. So no, their exclusion from the ranking is not due to them being "unpopular" characters.
What I see is a toxic fan who didn't like the ranking because it's not how he wanted it to be and he believes that his word weighs more than the author's, he even speaks on his behalf imposing clauses that according to him, were the ones that Omori used for that effect.
In one thing you are right, I wasn't a mentally healthy person when I felt sorry that you were banned from this wiki and I had even less mental health when I interceded for you with the administrators so that they would be more lenient with you. Because yes, I know perfectly well who you are!
Van could occupy a place in that ranking, he could even be second after Ryuu and that would not solve Anya's problem. You say that she does not count because she left the Freya family and because retirement weakened her, well, we already clarified that retirement did not weaken her and she is still in great shape and although she is not an active member, all her combat skills were learned in Folkvangr, following the doctrine of the Einherjar. She would be like a graduate of a university that is no longer linked to the institution but learned everything they teach there.
So, Anya, a member of the Freya family by training although not by membership (which does not matter for this debate) is not the strongest of her level, which proves that Freya's adventurers are not necessarily stronger than anyone of other family.
Van's statement would serve to say that some members are stronger than their counterparts from other families, and from what was seen in the war game it is quite reasonable to say that most of its members are stronger than those of other families, as indicated in MS17 - 18 and in the episode Freya. But, it is also demonstrated that it is not a universal rule that applies to all cases.
All this started because your original comment was: "It's clear that whatever are Loki Familia adventurer norme for combat ability by level it's far inferior the norme of Freya Familia adventurer", arguing that in the mentioned volumes it was said that any member of another family (Loki included) would be inferior to them. A generalization that at least regarding the Loki trio there is no evidence that it applies.
I don't understand why you think that Tsubaki's defeat at the hands of Hogni proves that Freya is superior, Hogni has more level, experience and is a pure warrior, Tsubaki, although she knows how to fight, is still a professional blacksmith. Hogni's victory is the most natural result but that doesn't prove that if he faces another level 6 who is also a pure warrior he will win.
You are right in one thing and that is that the Loki trio has lacked worthy opponents that allow them to demonstrate their ability as warriors, unfortunate for not having antagonists available to use in the plots. But Omori's position has been ambiguous in this regard, deliberately avoiding any precision between who is better than who among the elites of Orario.
You also didn't answer the question of Aisha, we saw how Ottar was defeated by 3~4 who were one level below him, being him better than all of them, therefore, even if Aisha was level 5, 2 or 3 level 4 of Freya should be able to defeat her, especially if they are better than her, why didn't that happen? To me personally it seems clear that it was because she is better than them.
I remind you that the Einherjar have no problem attacking several of them to the same opponent, even if they do it in a disorganized manner, as they did against Ryuu.
I speak of partial victory because Aisha landed a blow that left him momentarily knocked out. It is not a great excuse to say that it was because he was "disturbed." Maintaining concentration is an indispensable virtue for a warrior who prides himself on being "better than anyone else." And no, Alfrigg was not weakened. In the whole battle, the only blow they had been able to give him was the explosion of the magic sword that sent him flying, which is not much. Don't take away Aisha's merit!
Then when he got up and Aisha, Lunor and Chloe (3 level 5, not 4 as you said) couldn't defeat him it was a plot armor, if he had such power why didn't he use it from the beginning and finish them off to avoid complications? Inexplicably he became much more powerful than moments before, as if he had become a super saiyan XD! Maybe he has an ability that makes him stronger when his 3 brothers have fallen but that's speculation.
On the other hand, you oppose the idea that Bell's power now remains at its real level, it would certainly be conflicting if Aki was as powerful as him as soon as they both reached level 5, but for Bell to be stronger than her he doesn't necessarily have to be a level 6, it would be enough to be the strongest at his level but staying at this one, there's no need to overstate things for that effect.
So that's why you insisted that Van has an ability that raises him to level 5, I didn't understand why, I was about to think that you were a radical fanatic of Freya. I honestly don't see it as that complicated, Bell stopped using Ais's teachings because he doubted that they were real and when he verified that they were, he became much more powerful to the point of managing to hit Hedin, something he hadn't been able to do until that moment. It's a simple symbolism that Ais' love strengthens him, something simpler and easier to fit into the plot than the fact that Van has an ability worthy of the captain of his family being a simple middle manager.
The reason I don’t have to provide evidence regarding the ranking is because I’m simply taking the author’s word literally; you don’t need proof for that. On the other hand, you’re rejecting it, and needless to say, that requires justification. Let’s analyze the sequence of arguments:
1. I used that tweet to demonstrate that it’s false that Freya’s adventurers are stronger than anyone else of the same level from another family, because in the ranking of the strongest level 4s, no one from Freya’s family appeared.
2. You said that’s false, claiming that if Freya’s family had already been introduced, they would top the ranking. This argument has no validity because it’s you saying it, not Omori.
3. Even so, I countered by arguing that if your premise were true, Anya should be number 1 in the ranking, as she had already debuted by that time, yet she didn’t even appear in the ranking.
4. You said it was because the ranking only included active adventurers (another baseless claim) and that the members of the Hostess of Fertility had weakened due to their retirement, citing Hedin’s view of Mia as weak based on her performance when he saved her from Ottar.
5. I countered by saying that Omori stated that the waitresses could defeat the Ishtar Familia, which would mean they’d have to face 10 level 3s each, being level 4s themselves. That would require a great deal of power. In that same vein, I mentioned Hedin, but I wasn’t referring to his overall performance in the war game; rather, I was comparing his performance against Ottar to Mia’s. We absolutely cannot conclude that Mia has weakened or that she is weaker than Hedin. I used this argument to demonstrate that, while it would make sense for retirement to have weakened them, in practice, that’s not the case, and they’re still in top form.
In conclusion, even accepting that members like Van didn’t appear in the ranking because they hadn’t debuted yet, you still have no grounds to justify why Anya isn’t there, which shows that being part of Freya’s family doesn’t make you stronger than anyone else at your same level.
Honestly, I doubt you’ll accept this; perhaps I’m prejudging, but it seems to me that you won’t accept the ranking simply because you don’t like that Freya’s family isn’t on it. I’m open to debating ideas, so if you have counterarguments, I’ll gladly address them, but if they’re like your previous points where you spoke for the author, I’ll leave it at that because it’ll be clear you won’t accept anything other than a level 4 from Freya’s family being the strongest.
Regarding Aisha, I’m talking about the part of the battle where she was fighting the Einherjars before the Gulliver brothers arrived. Let’s assume she fought the whole time as a level 5, but one of your previous arguments was that someone of a lower level can defeat their opponent if they surpass them in combat skill, which you said of Hedin and Riveria. So if Aisha was fighting against 2 or 3 level 4s who surpass her in combat prowess, they should have defeated her according to your logic. Why didn’t that happen?
When the Bringar arrived, it was Naaza’s magic swords that prevented her defeat. But it was 4 against 1; she would obviously lose. Nonetheless, when she faced Alfrigg one-on-one, she was able to partially defeat him, highlighting her great skill in fair combat, legitimizing why her ranking position (2nd, now 1st) is not undeserved.
I admit it would have been better to see her face off against a level 4 from Freya’s family without any level boost; that would have definitively settled the matter. However, if Omori had wanted to ratify that Freya’s members are the best, this would have been the perfect opportunity. Why didn’t he do it?
I understand there’s no conclusive evidence that Aisha is stronger than any level 4 from Freya’s family, but there’s also nothing to suggest any of them could defeat her.
Regarding the Loki trio, there are some indicators suggesting they’re better than the Freya trio, namely:
1. They benefited from the support policies of the Zeus and Hera families, and only Ottar from Freya’s family shared that benefit.
2. In Astrea Record, we’re told Finn is the most powerful after Ottar.
3. As I mentioned, generally speaking, having a higher level usually means having more combat prowess.
You don’t have to refute these points; they’re circumstantial evidence, by no means conclusive. I just want to point out that there are at least some hints in their favor.
As for the Freya trio, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t see any circumstantial or objective evidence suggesting they’re better than the Loki trio. Well, Riveria does; she herself admitted she could lose to Hedin. But not for Finn or Gareth.
Regarding Allen and Bete, things certainly don’t look favorable for Bete. If he couldn’t land a solid beating on Allen with bestialization just like he did with Phryne, things would likely go poorly for him against Allen. It’s still possible he might have better combat skill if he managed to control the battle, but in overall power, it seems he falls short.
If Hedin had expressed confidence in victory due to his own power, it would be an indication that he considers himself stronger than the other level 6s (in fact, I think that by MS18, whether or not they were level 7, everyone still viewed them as level 6s). However, the advantage was attributed to Ottar, meaning that Omori deliberately avoided clarifying this matter, even indirectly.
In conclusion, I’m not firmly defending the idea that the Loki trio is necessarily better, since Omori continues to sidestep the topic. However, you seem to be firmly defending that the Freya trio is superior, so I’d like to know what evidence you have for that, because I don’t see any.
You're setting conditions to fit your view of things. How could you prove that this tweet only took active adventurers into account and not retired ones like Anya? You want to argue that they’re too weak due to their retirement to be considered, but in practice, retirement hasn’t weakened the members of the Hostess of Fertility, for the following reasons:
Omori tweeted that Tsubaki, Anya, Chloe, and Lunoire could defeat the Ishtar Familia without Uchide no Kozuchi. Tsubaki would take care of Phryne, and one of the other three would handle Tammuz, leaving the remaining two to deal with about twenty level-3 Berbera. Would you call that being weak?
If you're going to argue that the Berbera are weak, remember that they successfully defended Haruhime from the Einherjars. And speaking of that, if the Einherjars are so superior to everyone else, why couldn’t they take down Lena (level 2) and Samira (level 3) to overpower Haruhime? It’s becoming more doubtful that the Einherjars could win against anyone!
On the other hand, Hedin complained about Mia’s performance, but practically speaking, he didn’t perform any better than she did. She fought solo at the beginning of the battle, and Hedin was the first of the four to fall, despite being the last to join. So his performance was, at most, equal to Mia's, to be generous. Therefore, Mia’s inactivity hasn’t weakened her or the other maids at all.
Given this, if Anya (of the Freya Familia) and Alicia weren’t listed in the ranking, it’s not an oversight but rather because they weren’t meant to be included. Only Bell’s absence is controversial, but that was when his power was immense. As a unique character, it wouldn’t make much sense to rank him with ordinary characters.
As for Aisha, she received UnK at the beginning, but remember it only lasts 20 minutes, and the southern flank was completely overrun with only a few remaining. Also, all gods except four were eliminated by Allen, so before the Bringar arrived, Mikoto, Naaza, and the Berbera were already fighting outnumbered. With or without the level boost, the Einherjars should have been able to defeat her in those circumstances, but they didn’t. Why is that? Perhaps because she’s better than them? If you disagree, how do you explain that under those circumstances they couldn’t defeat her and had to send the Bringar to take her down?
Regarding the Loki Familia, the life of an adventurer is full of dangers. Doesn’t Ottar say that gaining power requires venturing out? They had to defeat Enyo, and that involved risks. If no one had died, Omori would be accused of excessive plot armor. Your idea of prioritizing self-preservation would be the same as letting Enyo roam freely, which obviously wasn’t an option. That’s the life of adventurers: they take risks, some die, but those who survive become stronger.
As for their level 7 being only a stat boost and not a combat skill improvement—in Danmachi, level indicates combat skill, which is why expressions like "the skill of a level X adventurer" are used. This rule is always followed; when have we seen an adventurer with a higher level but lower combat skill than another? Except for Bell, of course. It’s a very natural outcome: leveling up involves facing challenges, overcoming them means progress, and progress translates to higher quality. So, even though there isn’t an official confirmation, it’s logical within the series that Loki’s trio surpasses Freya’s in both stats and combat skills.
Regarding Allen and Bete, given how much you value stats, you should easily understand why Bete needed to beastify himself. Allen could have stats in the S range while Bete’s might be I, H, or at most G. There’s a clear gap that needs to be closed for the fight to be fair—that’s obvious. The interesting part for our discussion is the development of the fight itself, knowing who won or was winning, and whether one had a marked advantage in skill. Ultimately, we’re talking about combat skill, so performance is what matters. Too bad Omori didn’t show us the fights, at least this one, so we wouldn’t have to speculate.
But the fact that neither came out injured raises serious doubts about whether Allen’s skill is vastly superior to Bete’s. The same could be said in reverse, but it’s Allen who has to prove his superiority to give credibility to the idea that any member of Freya’s Familia is superior to anyone from another familia. If the evidence doesn’t support it, that claim starts to look like one of Omori’s typical hyperboles.
As for the conversation between Hedin and Ottar, the trio wasn’t level 7 when volume 18 was published. Yes, chronologically they were, as written in SO14, but SO14 was published after MS18, so it’s a typical case of reconfiguration. So, when MS18 was written, they were still level 6. Therefore, Hedin’s trust in Ottar for victory rather than himself raises a big question about whether he really believes he could defeat any level 6 in Loki’s Familia.
If you're going to say I'm being arbitrary with this reconfiguration idea, it’s no more arbitrary than your claim that not only was the trio already level 7 when it hadn’t been published at that time, but also that Hedin knew this and based his calculations on that uncertain information. Both ideas have a speculative component, but mine has a basis (the publication dates support it), while yours is entirely speculative, if I may say so.
The reason I mentioned the efficiency of the growth methods between both familias is that many believe Freya's method of fighting every day makes them better than anyone else, including the Loki Familia. However, it's the members of the Loki Familia who keep leveling up, while Freya's members are stagnant. So, whether conventional or unconventional methods are used, it's the Loki Familia that’s truly improving, raising the question of whether they would really be inferior to anyone from Freya’s Familia at the same level, as improving stats goes hand-in-hand with increasing combat skill.
In volume 17, there’s a confrontation between the two factions, though it’s mentioned very briefly. When Allen, the Bringar, along with Vanir and company were returning to Folkvangr, they were intercepted by Gareth, Bete, and some others who blocked Vanir's path, though it's not specified exactly who they were. Obviously, there are no known results, but they weren’t afraid to face them, and there’s no reason to believe things went poorly since the Loki Familia was intact in volume 18.
Regarding level 4
That tweet never indicates that it refers only to characters who have debuted; when Omori tweeted that Alfia and Zard were the most powerful characters in the franchise, he clarified that he was referring only to those who had debuted, which shows that Omori does make those kinds of clarifications when they are pertinent, so you have no solid basis to defend your point.
But leaving that aside and focusing on the facts, your logic has another problem, according to your reasoning Anya should be listed as number 1 on the list, because she is level 4, from the Freya family and had already debuted, but she was not even listed and in the Ryuu episode it was quite clear that Ryuu is stronger than the other 3 waitresses...
As for Aisha, during the war game she proved her supremacy, she was the only level 4 on the south flank and no second class adventurer of Freya could beat her, they had to send the Bringar to defeat her and not even they could beat her when they were equal in level.
It's not about that tweet anymore, it's about Aisha factually proved that she is the strongest level 4 and she is not from the Freya family.
Regarding Level 6
In SO10 when Finn, Gareth and Riveria fight together against Revis, it is mentioned that it had been years since they fought together. They can fight as a team and that doesn't mean that they don't have individual duels; it's like a medieval battle between Vikings and Britons, yes, there are 2 teams but in the heat of battle there are individual duels where each one fights against the opponent in front of them.
Finn mentions to Lili that he had fought against them many times and the members of the Loki family mention that before Revis they had never seen Finn lose, which implies that he never lost against them; it doesn't mean much since Omori never defines the fights between relevant members but anyway, it shows that he faced others who supposedly should be better than him and it wasn't like that.
You're right that the Loki trio leveled up because they got involved with Enyo and Freya not until the end, but for this purpose what does that matter? They trained more and improved more leaving their rivals behind, progress is the reward of effort. As for that gap closing soon, I don't see how, the Freya family doesn't explore the dungeon so they have no way to progress, whereas the Loki family does, so the logical consequence is that the gap gets bigger and bigger with each expedition, instead of closing.
As for the efficiency between the methods, obviously the Freya family hasn't had any fatalities, if they don't go to the dungeon who could kill them? But in the last 7 years the Loki family has brought 5 adventurers to be first class, whereas Freya has brought how many? ..........none, they have exactly the same 8 first class adventurers they had since the big Feud, no need to ask which one has the best method to progress.
Regarding MS17's fights, yes, Bete used beastization, what's wrong with that? It's his skill, didn't Allen use his skills to fight? Bete would make up for his smaller status with his skill, but if Freya's executives are so superior why didn't Bete end up in intensive care? We didn't see any post-battle injuries.
We only know that Hogni fought Tiona, we have no way of knowing what else happened so let's not talk about it.
By mentioning the youngsters I wanted to emphasize that the fact that they didn't have any injuries puts into doubt that a Freya member would literally defeat anyone with their same level.
In short, he can say in 2, 3 or nth novels that Freya members are stronger than any other but when it comes to the Loki family, the prooves are missing, where is the evidence that shows they would beat them? Also Raul and company intercepted Freya's members along with Bete and Gareth, were they defeated?
As a final reflection, Hedin told Finn that thanks to Ottar they were guaranteed victory even if the Loki family participated, curious precision to emphasize that it is thanks to having someone with a higher level that they can win if it were true that each of them is stronger than their counterpart of their same level because in that case why would Ottar be essential? Don't you think?
Endurance helps against any wound as long as it's not lethal, did you forget that the Juggernaut pierced Bell's abdomen with a stake and after cauterizing the wound he continued fighting, if that's not endurance, what is? As for dexterity, that is Finn's specialty, we are told that until his defeat by Revis he had never been defeated in the new era, indirectly that confirms his usefulness. For hobbits their dexterity is their best attribute, since they do not have a strength or speed with which to overwhelm their rival, the fighting style of the bringar highlights this, since it is their physical dexterity that allows them to carry out their fighting style.
As for Van, he only defeated a Bell who had forgotten the techniques of his teachers, like that detail of the right arm that Ryuu had corrected him, so it is nothing to brag about, I would like to see Van fighting against the juggernaut hand to hand to see how he does, if Ryuu, the strongest level 4 was easily defeated by him, I do not see how Van could do better, instead Bell knocked him out. It is clear that in perfect conditions, there was no level 4 that could beat Bell.
I don't know where you get that the combat ability per level of the Loki family is much lower than that of the Freya family.
Let's start with the fact that for level 4 we know from Omori himself that this is false, some time ago he published a ranking with the strongest level 4s and in it were Anakitty and Raul, on the other hand there was absolutely no one from the Freya family. It is clear then that they do not have the most powerful level 4s.
As for level 6s, perhaps you missed that the Loki trio is already level 7 while Freya's is still at level 6, which means that Loki's have had more and better challenges, which translates into more experience and therefore more prowess, leaving their rivals behind. It is not an abysmal difference at the moment but clearly Freya's are losing in quality.
Comparing them directly to those who are still level 6, well this is more speculative but did you see that Bete after fighting Allen and Tiona with Hogni ended up in a hospital bed? No, they were left wanting to settle the score in the war game. Who gets beaten up and wants to go get another one? If they were so eager to continue the fight it's because they didn't feel unable to win.
I know that in volume 18 it was said that Freya's adventurers were above others of the same level, but they forgot to clarify that they are referring to other ordinary adventurers like most of those who fought in the war game, not the Loki family.
Emiya, that is known as plot convenience, both Loki and her children were so upset with Freya that they attacked Folkvangr but since Omori didn't want any of them to participate in the wargame, he magically made their anger go away.
It's not that I'm trying to convince you that Aisha will level up, what I wanted to emphasize is that Ais' precedent no longer necessarily means that no one will level up in less than 1 year. I wanted to emphasize this because you flatly told Pluton that Aisha would no longer be able to level up for the remainder of the story, so I assumed you were taking the precedent strictly.
Leveling up has become much easier than before, look at Naaza, a retired part-time adventurer for years without any stats even in the E400 rank and just one good performance in one adventure was enough for her to level up, what about Aisha who has all those challenges you mention under her belt and should have at least one stat in the D rank if Omori is fair?
In short, her leveling up before the end of the story would be nowhere near the most controversial thing Omori has done, so it can't be ruled out in favor of super strict consistency which Omori lacks.
I was talking about an unwritten rule, as Longhatruong explained, Ais set a record with her level increase in 1 year, beating said record means you are better than her, something that no ordinary character could once achieve.
Said rule has circumstantial evidence, who has been able to level up in less than a year? Bell, Ryuu and by inference Alfia (she was almost level 8 at 16), meaning it was a privilege reserved for those loved by the script.
The question I am raising here is whether said privilege will continue to be so exclusive with how fickle Omori is and how much he loves glamour; Lefiya's case suggests a relaxation in this rule.
Aisha could level up once again, yes, there is a rule that says you can't level up in less than a year but this is Omori we're talking about, his rules are written in sand not stone.
What would leveling up in less than a year be compared to a double level? Or what would achieving it be compared to a narrative "Liaris Freese" like the one given to Lefiya?... No shit.
So whether or not Aisha will be able to level up to 5 will depend on how much sympathy Omori has for the character, not on any rules that may have been in place in the past.
She fought alongside Lefiya against Filvis, if we ever learn how much she won because of this and it's comparable to what Lefiya won, then yes, Aisha also enjoys favoritism.
Animated: Nina @ Hestia Familia: Hopefully this will be something better than just annoying jealousy scenes because Nina is in love with Bell and they only focus on that when they receive her. It would be better to focus on professional socialization with the family and field adventures to learn how to work together.
Melonbooks: Syr and Idunn: I don't think this is going to be something extremely interesting but it doesn't hurt to know Syr's new approaches regarding the search for her Odr with the person who embarked her on said search. Also if Syr shows a truly contrite attitude for her bad actions it would help improve her perception with fans who still despise her.
Bookwalker: Ryu, Asfi and Aisha: This trio has worked together in different adventures, even in DanMemo and I personally like it; Of course, now that Ryuu is level 6 it becomes more complicated to maintain it for practical purposes (2 levels of difference is a lot), but it could serve for a closer collaboration between the Hestia and Hermes families, both parties would benefit from it.
Gamers: Leon and Ottar: By far I find this the most interesting thing about these SS, and not only to know who is stronger than who, which has been the most recurrent doubt in this regard, but I have other more interesting questions, for example how did Leon get to level 7? How has he gotten stronger living far from Orario and therefore without the dungeon? And most importantly, how do they plan to get to level 8? Truth be told I see it as very complicated due to lack of options. As long as some of these issues are addressed I'll be satisfied.
Even if the resulting value of a stat was the arithmetic sum of all the values it had at all levels, you forget that the simple increase in level generates a great boost by itself, the amount of this is unknown, but it is known it is not at all negligible since the mere fact of having a higher level guarantees that you will have more status than anyone with a lower level.
Thus, adding Bell's stats in his 5 levels may be a higher value than adding Ais's in her 6 levels, but Ais has a level increase more and as long as we do not know how much this boost is equivalent to, it will not be possible to know who has more status between the 2 despite the numbers.
The functioning of the falna has too many unknowns that do not allow true calculations to be made that determine the real power of a character. It is like trying to solve a system of equations where there are more variables than equations, it will have infinite possible solutions.
@Pluton9, it's reasonable that you consider my comparison as unfair since as you said all those level 6s have abilities that increase their power, but if Bell had shown himself superior to any of them or at least equal, that would be conclusive proof that he is indeed level 6, however, there was only inferiority on Bell's part in said comparisons, which is a clear indication that he is not.
Lack of proof and evidence, that's what I'm talking about, since he rose to level 5, Bell has not shown anything that allows us to conclude that he has a power above his level, so you can't simply assume it as a proven fact.
Perhaps if he faced other level 5s and showed himself overwhelmingly superior, your theory that he is the weakest level 6 but level 6 after all could be true; However, there is some evidence that goes against that as well, namely:
"Drama CD The Jester Who Travels Across Time", which tells of Bell defeating Dina and Vena; that suggests he is level 6, because otherwise how could he defeat 2 level 5s? However, Omori later clarified that Hedin helped him, so it was a 2 vs 2 duel. This circumstance exacerbates the doubts regarding Bell being a level 6, because if he was, why would he need to fight on equal terms against Vena and Dina in order to defeat them?
Personally, I think Omori didn't like that at this point in the story Bell was already as powerful as Orario's own elite. He hasn't even started to actively work with them and he would already equal them in power, so when he was level 6 he would already surpass them by far; it wouldn't be the best plot so Omori moderated himself with Bell and keep him at his real level.
But ultimately it's not something that really matters, in the same way that Omori took away the boost that put Bell above his level when he deemed it inopportune, he will give it back to Bell when he deems it pertinent and Bell will return to being above his nominal level as before.
If Bell were a level 6 he wouldn't lose to any level 5 unless said level 5 had some super ability that would level him up; experience is only decisive when it comes to adventurers of the same level, but when there is a difference in level, status is decisive. Such was the case of Tione against Asterius, as basic as her fighting style was compared to an expert like Tione, he would have beaten her since her blows barely bothered Asterius.
In all the comparisons between Bell and other level 6s (Tiona, Tione, Hedin, Ryuu and Mia) Omori has said that Bell is inferior. It may be because Bell doesn't have the combat skills of these geniuses despite having the same level, but it is also possible that he is simply a level 5 compared to level 6s, hence his inferiority. My point is that there needs to be some explicit demonstration by Bell that proves he is indeed level 6 instead of just assuming it.
But either way, it's a waste of time trying to figure out through numerical calculations how powerful Bell should be; the boost due to his stats is determined more by Omori's circumstantial will than any numerical calculations, which is why in some battles he has shown a gigantic boost and in others a tiny one.
I ignored the examples you cite because they are not too good, the first one: Ais saving him from a minotaur, if you completely ignore that it was Ais who sent the minotaur to the 5th floor and got him into trouble..., Of course an immature child like Bell would obviously fall in love with such gallantry, but if saving him from a monster is the condition to make him fall in love then he should be crazy about Ryuu who has saved him from much worse monsters than that one (Black Goliath, Juggernaut and Freya family).
The second one, Ais overcoming the charm and saving him from Freya's miniature garden (vol 17), I didn't take it into account for 2 reasons: the first, because it wasn't due to Ais' merit, it was a plot convenience since it never made sense for only Ais to overcome the charm; Still, it could have been something very significant if Omori had continued down that line of argument, which brings me to the second point, volume 18.
You ask me why I ignore volume 17? I ask you, why do you ignore volume 18? Of all the girls close to Bell, only Ais ignored his problem. Are you going to say that that's nothing? Do the mental exercise of putting yourself in Bell's place. If you were going to be kidnapped for sexual harassment and the man you love was in a position to save you (at least try) but ignored your problem, would you still love him in the same way than before? In Bell's case, that was the case, but it's a plot convenience. It's only like that if you consider that to be kidnapped and to raped are trivial things that aren't worth it.
However, don't get me wrong, I never wanted to say that Ais hasn't done enough to make Bell love her, but there are better examples than the ones you mention, namely:
1. She was very attentive to him when he was level 1, she saved him 4 times, the last time she had to fight Ottar, what a great love!
2. She didn't abandon him when she knew she was wasting her time because no matter how much time she spent with him, she wasn't going to discover his secret of rapid growth, affection that ultimately took her to point 1 when she knew that another minotaur was going to kill him.
3. The peak of Ais' love for Bell, she stayed in the Edas village knowing that they revered her hated black dragon, because she knew that if she left Bell alone, Rakia's forces would capture him. When I read that I thought: "no wonder he only wants her." It's a shame that Omori didn't maintain this same quality in the following volumes.
So, if you read what I wrote carefully, you'll see that I didn't say that Ais needs to earn Bell's love (something she already has), what I said is that Ais needs to give him reasons to love her and only her, because as things stand I don't see any clear reason for Bell to think and feel that only she can be his woman, well none besides plot convenience I mean.
What you think is that it's Bell who must give her reasons to love him; I'm not disagreeing with your position but I'm expanding it in both directions; just as Bell must earn Ais' love, she must also earn Bell's exclusivity, because healthy relationships are reciprocal.
Lastly, these posts as Emiya put it are opinion articles, their purpose is for us to say what we think about it, because if we limit ourselves to the facts there's no point in making more posts about romance at all, since Omori already defined the matter, then there's nothing more to talk about it.
Personally, I don't have a specific shipping, beyond wanting a particular girl, I want a coherent development for the relationship.
If hypothetically the series were to end right now, I would prefer Ryuu, because she has given Bell 1000 reasons to love her, unlike Ais. However, if Ais, hopefully sooner rather than later, starts giving Bell reasons why she and only her is worth loving, it's okay for him to stay faithful to her.
In short, I prefer that the one who has had the best development as a couple "wins", without having to force the plot in her favor.